Stunned to death by a life-saving Taser?

The death of Karl W. Marshall was the first time that someone in Kansas City police custody died after Taser use.
In other cases like this around the country, the death has been attributed to drug use or other causes - not the Taser. And the Taser maker, which says its product saves lives, fights critics.
But some police departments have amended their Taser-use policies after incidents. And Marshall's death promises to bring police Taser use here under scrutiny.

Police statement 9:09 p.m. Sunday

Star story today

News stories in Nexis, "taser and police and death", past 90 days: 665.

Growing list of links:
Video of cop being Taser'ed in training
Georgia sheriff revises Taser policy after a death
'If they point a Taser at you, you better listen'
Jury rejects Arizona deputy's lawsuit against Tasers
Palm Beach Post study of 1,000 Taser uses by police
KC cops Taser man, still get shot at, feds say

Comments

[Captain Kangaroo]

This is terrible. I can't believe this guy wasn't taken to a hospital. After witnesses told authorities of the drug use, that should have been a red flag that there was going to be problems. In past situations where police had to use a taser on suspects, drug use is the factor that often makes a taser deadly. Officers know this. This man should have been subdued and than taken to an area hospital. This is a real black eye for the police department.

What evidence do you have to suggest that drug use makes the use of a Taser deadly? I'm a cop and I certainly don't "KNOW" that as you suggest the police do. We're not doctors, we're not nurses, we're not paramedics and the statement you made is a blatant lie.

He died because he made an irresposible personal decision to use dangerous, illegal narcotics. This should be a condemnation on his lifestyle, NOT the police department.

The police did not pick him out of a crowd to torment. He was being assaultive toward other people and they were called to the scene to protect other people. He assaulted the police, he resisted arrest and he attempted to jump off a bacloney. According to a witness, the police potentially SAVED his life by keeping him from jumping.

Just because someone is using drugs doesn't warrant an automatic trip to the hospital. Just because someone is under the influence of narcotics and has been Tased does not warrant an automatic trip to the hospital either.

What is the KCPD's protocol for when they arrest someone who's been using drugs?

This man needed to go to the hospital if not just for the drug use, but to check his heart after being stunned.

One report says the man didn't ask for medical treatment. Doh! He wasn't in a state of mind to know if he needed to ask for medical help. KCPD also informed there was no obvious need to take him to the hospital after the arrest. So, they're all medical professionals or psychics? Does a person need to be bleeding or convulsing before any medical care is given?

If he hadn't harmed a person or property, it should have been a medical call and they could have charged him with resisting and disorderly later if they felt like it.

I am a salesman for a local Law Enforcement supply company, we sale all kinds of stuff. It is WELL KNOWN in the POLICE COMMUNITY that TASERS are LETHAL, depending on the CIRCUMSTANCE!
In other words, where the prongs end up going and the part of the body being shocked! THIS is the main thing a COP should know, also they should know that DRUG USE does INDEED make it more of a chance that a lethal dose of TASER(elec) could be given!
THE POLICE DO KNOW THIS, DONT DOUBT IT! sorry my friend the cop, I know you dont KNOW, but you do THINK! think about that!

[Captain Kangaroo]

The last 2 commentors were right on! The officer tried to blast me and he called me a liar. Sticks and stones, my friend. I think it is funny that we citizens know more about law enforcement than the officer does. Sounds like that person needs more training or maybe just more common sense!
I know the police were just doing their jobs, but this could have been avoided.
A "blatant lie", you have disgraced yourself and the department. Learn more!

Just think of all the stress the heart is put under when under the influence of drugs. Surely the taser would only exemplify this affect. It's kind of a no-win situation for everyone involved. This was BTW an old, old friend of mine. Sad to see things had come to this for him. Very sad.

The moral of the story is: Don't use drugs, don't give the police the chance to TASER your sorry azz.......One tends to get what one deserves

[F]

The person that says he is a cop ,also states "we are not Drs. ,nurses or para medics" . Then he should have been sent to the hospital for a work up . That should be the protocol for any body who gets hit with a taser.
The police department no doubt will be sued for being negligent ,as they were.
I also find it unbelievable that he was checked on every 15 minutes . That kind of checking only happens to pts. in a recovery room after surgery.
The spokesman for the police dept seemed unconcerned that a death had happened after being tasered.

There are situations where someone puts drugs in your drink or food without your knowledge. What will happen to those people who don't understand what's happening to them or can't verbalize? Will KCPD just assume it's that person's fault for being a drug abuser, not seek medical help for them and let them die because of some biased attitude?

[e]

"One tends to get what one deserves"... Tru in this case. I agree with the cop

[Vince Wolfork]

It's up to the cop, "e" and me to beat back you heathens. Tazers do not kill people and just because you morons think they do doesn't make it so.

[Tits McGee]

"One tends to get what one deserves".
That might be true in some cases, but the cop is still a moron. And the commentor who sided with the cop is a jackass.
So the real moral of this forum is...if you are a moron or a jackass don't post. Not all cops are dumbshits, just the ones who post idiotic comments.

[Tits McGee]

Once again. Would people stop stealing handles. Vince Wolfork is a close personal friend of mine. That comment is way too dumb to be from him. Hey, would the real Vince Wolfork please stand up. Don't get crazy, Vince, just be known.

[Crime Scene KC]

lol T.McGee and pseudo-Vince, you both come across this blog with static IP addresses, so I can collect all your nicks. I like both you guys and your frequent comments, but with this spoofing do I have to out your (many) nicks (and their origins, lol, I looked 'em up).
Or, how about: "Soap: Lives of the Crime Scene commenters"?
You stay classy, Kansas City. Ron Burgundy out.

[Matt]

Are you kidding me?

[Matt]

Plan for day.

1. Load up on cocaine, pcp, whatever
2. Completely lose control of myself and my actions.
3. Become a threat to society and when the police come to subdue me, resist arrest, fight with police, attempt to jump off balcony and then get tazed by police instead of being shot, which was probably more justified.
4. Brought into custody because of cocaine induced psychotic episode brought on by my personal choice to use.
5. Die in jail and have the city argue that morons like me are not responsible for my actions and the consequences that follow.

People who act like this deserve whatever negative consequences that might arise from their behavior. Why can't people see this for what it is?

[Tony]

What I find disturbing is the assumption by the various commentators from the KCPD is that they seem to believe they are beyond questioning by the public. There is an investigation underway because someone dying in police custody is important enough to draw serious inquiry from the public. Of course there are mitigating factors, reports say the guy was resisting arrest and that cocaine and PCP were found in his system. However, the penalty for either of these offenses is not death and even if it was . . . that’s a decision to be made by the judicial system and not enforcement.

Put simply, the KCPD work for the public not the other way around. Criticism and inquiry come with the job and are signs of an active community concerned with the quality of their police force.

Using a Taser on a guy who is already in handcuffs might, just might violate what is considered to be a Level II situation for Taser use. These policies were developed in partnership with the community and the possibility of straying from these directives could be a serious breach in community trust.

What’s important in this case is that we neither mindlessly attack the police for wrongdoing nor do we mindlessly support what might be an inappropriate use of force by the local cops. Clearly, a citizen who is innocent until proven guilty dying in police custody deserves attention and critical analysis from the public and the police department. In this case, it’s receiving both and that’s a good thing.

[sickoftheabuse]

It's this simple: If you are going to take care, custody and control of someone, and prevent him from seeking medical attention for himself - or incapaciate him so that he cannot think clearly for himself - you have the duty to protect and serve that person. That may or may not include seeking medical attention for him. If you fail in that duty you are - and should be - liable.

[John]

I support the police in the use of tasers and other means they deem necesesary to control a combative subject. It is not the officers fault here that the subject died and probably blame should go back to the subject. He initiated the chain of events that lead to his death and that is unfortunate. But, the police department should have in place the appropriate policies regarding treatment of detainees following certain uses of force, such as gasses, tasers, bean bags, ect... This should require an imediate medical evaluation by medical staff. These individuals are being taken into custody and that means that the police department is responsible for the safety and wellbeing of that person. It should not be left up to the individual nor the street officer, corrections officer or even a supervisor. These levels of force are necesecary to save lives and injury and this applies to the subject as well. Once you take that person into custody he no longer has the free will to decide, its the city, state, or other jurisdictions responsibility to decide in the best interest of that person regardless of what they have done. If its policy and its done every time then there is less opportunity to be mistakes and consequences from those mistakes. What would the cost of these medical evaluations be compared to the cost of the lawsuits that will probably be settled for on just this one incident.

The police should have just let the scumbag jump and then they wouldn't have had to use the taser in the first place. It would have cost us taxpayers alot less money.

[d]

Screw it, if tazers are so dangerous lets get rid of them. Then we can go back to the good old fashion shooting them, or beating them with nightsticks.

Get a clue folks, sorry he died, but it was his own damn fault. What are we going to take every person arrested who appears under the influence to get checked out by a doctor? Be realistic.

If relative of this guy sue they should be told to piss off. THe cause of death will show that the drug use was a significant factor. End of discussion.

Research by Christine Hall, a Calgary, Alberta, physician, found at least 156 people who had died in police custody in the United States in recent years where a Taser was used at some point. She said she has also found 15 such deaths in Canada.
But she questioned how much Tasers had to do with the deaths. She said suspects have died in custody in similar situations before Tasers were invented.
Hall said some police custody deaths in the 1970s were blamed on positional asphyxiation; some deaths in the 1980s were blamed on pepper spray; and some deaths now are being blamed on Tasers.
“Every method of police restraint is being blamed, but the people keep dying even when the methods are changed,” she said. “There is a pattern to this.”
The pattern that Hall sees is a state of excited delirium experienced by most of the suspects before they die in custody. She described excited delirium as a “state of altered thinking and perception” that can be due to mental illness or drug use.
Hall has applied for a $1.5 million grant to study links between Tasers and deaths of suspects who are in a state of excited delirium.
Even if Hall is able to determine what makes someone a high-risk to die in custody, she said, figuring out how to prevent that person’s death is another huge task.
“We just don’t know what is going on medically inside their bodies,” she said.
“Is it that we could teach officers to recognize who is at high-risk of dying in custody? We don’t know,” she said.

Research by Christine Hall, a Calgary, Alberta, physician, found at least 156 people who had died in police custody in the United States in recent years where a Taser was used at some point. She said she has also found 15 such deaths in Canada.
But she questioned how much Tasers had to do with the deaths. She said suspects have died in custody in similar situations before Tasers were invented.
Hall said some police custody deaths in the 1970s were blamed on positional asphyxiation; some deaths in the 1980s were blamed on pepper spray; and some deaths now are being blamed on Tasers.
“Every method of police restraint is being blamed, but the people keep dying even when the methods are changed,” she said. “There is a pattern to this.”
The pattern that Hall sees is a state of excited delirium experienced by most of the suspects before they die in custody. She described excited delirium as a “state of altered thinking and perception” that can be due to mental illness or drug use.
Hall has applied for a $1.5 million grant to study links between Tasers and deaths of suspects who are in a state of excited delirium.
Even if Hall is able to determine what makes someone a high-risk to die in custody, she said, figuring out how to prevent that person’s death is another huge task.
“We just don’t know what is going on medically inside their bodies,” she said.
“Is it that we could teach officers to recognize who is at high-risk of dying in custody? We don’t know,” she said.

[Tits McGee]

What is all this talk about IP addresses. That sounds crumby. Pseudo Vince says, "This is BS." Spoken like a true rainbow warrior. Tits McGee doesn't like soap operas. The point of this comment is to not speak of the above mentioned incident. I don't even want to use the term "taser". But I do like the "stay classy Kansas City" comment. That's pretty cool. Be careful, its a jungle out there!

[Micah]

I don't know when they started to attribute this guy's death to the taser, but here's an idea, how about attributing this man's actions to his death? People want to run around screaming "Its the cops fault" or "The cops know that tasers can injure". Here's a fact that you can't dispute PCP has killed more people than taser's ever will. Its called personal responsiblity, and some of you need to learn what it is, instead of blaming everyone else but yourself.

[Jimmy Buffet]

Spoken like a true dweeb. Micah how about you become responsible for your own actions and shut up. That would be the best for all of us, if you could just not talk. You have lost your right to comment on this forum. You should sit in the corner and think about what you have done. You should be ashamed.

[Michelle]

Last time I saw Karl was 15 years ago but when I knew him he was an honor roll student, a gifted singer, dancer, played many instruments, artist, and an active member at his church. He was a kind and beautiful wonderful soul. When I knew him he didn't even drink, smoke, or swear!! He was a very laid back, loving, caring person and I find this to all be very sad. As I said, since I haven't seen him in 15 years I do not know what happend to him to make him completely change his life and go down the wrong path and it's hard for me to wrap my thoughts around him even being this way because I only know the person he was then but it's very sad he chose this path and I don't know how long he's been on this path but because he did the world lost a very gifted individual. I'll certainly miss and always love the person he was.

[SpencerHall]

If the taser is so safe why don't all the officers demonstrate it by lining up and getting 3 tasers each, or are they chicken?

[Micah]

What? What have I done except speak the truth? Please enlighten me as to what I did that I should sit on the corner. OOOOhhh, I get it, the truth is not tolerated here. I shall slap my own hand and say "bad boy, you spoke the truth". I curious as to why you think you have the power to deny me the right to express myself on this forum?

[Jake]

In the old days, they would have shot him. Tasers are a respectable alternative. Illicit drug use leads to situations such as these. Police are confronted with drud induced hostility everyday, but you probably don't hear a lot about the arrests that are affected with no casualties.

Michelle,
YOu obviously are not aware, that many of the police department as part of the Taxer training require the participants (the police who will use the Tazer) to be Tazered. Now I cannot speak for all metro police departments but I know that some have this as part of their training.

[TIts McGee]

To the moron who wrote the last comment: The commentors name appears at the bottom of the comment. SO the person you should have posted back to is actually Spencer Hall. Thought you should know. Come correct or don't come at all. Jagoff!

[Jimmy Buffet]

Micah you have disgraced everyone who has ever posted a comment. For that you should truly be sorry. Your mind is playing tricks on you, again. The last comment sounded like it was made out of desperation.
You are losing your mind, aren't you! You have absolutely no idea of what is going on with the world we live in. No, Micah, you should not have to "sit on the corner". Rather you should sit 'in' the corner. Try as hard as you can to make an intelligent comment. I don't think it will ever happen. I also don't think you know what it is that you expect to accomplish with idiotic comments like the ones you have made. Pull your head out!

[Ohwell]

And to thinkthat all of this could have been prevented if the guy hadnt gone crazy on drugs and put himself in a situation where pd needed to be called.

[The Joker]

So Michah, I guess it's the suspects fault in St. Louis when four officers chased him down and beat the devil out of him too? You know...the one captured by the news chopper that the officers didn't know was there. The one where the officers were jumping up and down on his ankle after he was already on the ground getting clubbed, kicked, and hit by the other three officers.
It's not that anyone here is saying that this guy is a saint. It's that the officers have a duty to serve and protect. That includes, sometimes, protecting citizens from themselves. He was on drugs, the officers knew it, they tasered him, they locked him in a room so that he could not get medical attention for himself. I say let's lock them in a room for a few years now.

[TIts McGee]

Micah, you are getting punked out by everyone on this forum. Jimmy was right, you are a moron. You have lost control of your bodily functions, all over yourself!

[Jake]

From what appears on the tape footage, the officers clearly exceeded what "force is necessary to affect an arrest." I know how they feel, but it's no excuse for it happening. Four officers, 3 cau., 1 AA, were from smaller suburban community departments and PROBABLY did not have the training or experience to use physical restraint. I hope this doesn't turn into a racial thing, but apparently it is a drug thing.

[F]

Noted in news coverage the police has already changed thier story once . They first stated that they had checked on him 3 times .Yesterday they reported infact he had been checked 2 times ,but no mention on how much time elapsed between each check.
sounds like a they are caught in one lie already.Hence the coverup begins
Greg is the stealing of the handle names realy going on

[doug]

I guess my question is how much more money are we going to pay out for all these Law suits against KCPD , its totally getting out of control and guess what the public are paying for it , not the police dept.
I live in the North Land and all we get it meter maids to pipe money downtown , think they are building Police stations in the Northland for your protection , wrong they want your money to pipe downtown to the ghetto

[Micah]

LOL. You all are silly in here. Lets review shall we. Ok, there was dweeb,punk,moron did I get those right? Reverting to the sixth grade anticts of name calling makes such a good impression and indicates clearly your point of view.

To joker: the post is about what happened here in KC, not is St. Louis, and my name is spelled underneath my post, you obviously don't have the intellect to figure that out. So, I thought I would point that out to you.

To Jimmy Buffet: You didn't answer my Question. still waiting. oh and by the way, this is the second post I have made since you revoked my right to post here. Just thought you should know.

[Crime Scene KC]

Yep, I'm pretty sure. Not only that, but one reader in particular has created 4-5 nicks, I think, and he uses those to weigh in on his side of arguments!

[Crime Scene KC]

Also, while I'm at it:
T.McGee, you're winning the foul-mouthed award recently...could you please clean it up a little? I'll settle for the first letter and ***, etc.
Thanks

[F]

Thanks Greg
Some people have to much time on there hands . I know for a fact that the area hosp could use some volunteers, esp CMH.
I say clean it up , act right ( like your age), stop name calling , or get out .
I'm sure most of us would rather not have the trouble makers on this blog.

[F]

Shooting electricity into your body can cause a heart attack. It jolts it. Any police officer using this should understand that this is weapon is no different than a gun. I have read about them using it on 7 years olds. These seem to easy and harmless to police officers and it is irresponsple to place such a weapon in the hands of people like this police officer.

[T.O]

I would like to comment on the ingorance of all the negative comments about Karl Marshall life. I did know him personally and think that everyone who has commented on this forum about him should realize we all have faults, mistakes, and problems in our lives that others do not experience or will not admit to have done. But this never changes the fact he was a HUMAN BEING and deserves to be looked at like that regardless of his lifestyle or what brought a end to his life. I think the officer's who handled the matter acted upon their fears and did not take into consideration he was under the influence of a drug. They knew he was under influence before arriving on the scene so time was allowed to think through the plan to obtain without harm.
Please remember the man was unarmed no weapons and running was his way of dealing with his fear. If you were not in a frame of mind to control your surroundings or actions doesnt make you de-humanized. I think that this was a sad day for alot of people who had to witness the actions by the officer's and those who loved Karl and will no longer have him in their lives. I think that extreme force and carless efforts were a big part of his death.
He may have used drugs in past or that day but he was still a human that was treated with dis-regard. How do you explain a death in police custody when your job is to protect and serve, not assume you deserved it since you were on drugs. There are many people that drink, use drugs, and break many laws but still we all have to be treated with respect.
I hope that this will open the eyes to everyone when you make a mistake pray you do not get tasered since you are just a animal and no one has regard for your life or fact you have others that love you.
I hope justice sees through the darkness of all and we can stop pointing fingers and realize we lost a beautiful person due to lack of knowledge and disregard to someone who needed help.
Good bless the Marshall family with strength and memories of how wonderful there son is in alot of people's eyes!

[Nathaniel Marshall jr]

I love you Karl my friend my brother

[Nathaniel Marshall jr]

The job of the police is to protect and serve, weather you are on drugs or not your job is 1. If someone is in your costudy , that person is your responsibility point blank. 2. We have ask that person if he or she is ok, do they need medical assistance.
This was total disregard for human right, the right to live. I have had law enforcement training the officers in this case was not by any means useing any of there training . And now they are doing any thing to cover it up the truth will come out IT ALWAYS DO.

[Letha Faye Marshall]

It has been almost 4 years, his birthday is August 9, My birthday is August 11, we would always call each other to wish a happy birthday. He has a son that looks and acts just like him. He was my brother, my friend and I will forever miss him.

YES, HE WAS A HUMAN BEING WHO WAS LOVED GREATLY.

[Charles Marshall]

To Protect is first. Serve is second. KC PD did none for my brother. They saw him as as many other officers in places around the world. Our family, we are built to forgive.
this is a hard one. I hope that one day KC PD will learn to PROTECT AND SERVE. If you did not know him.. My brother Karl.. Imagine that it was your brother, son, cousin, or Father, We all have issues. I hope that if I am in a situation.. I am in the hands of people who are going to protect me.. I am Charles Marshall. Younger brother..