"We either walk out of here free or we die."

That's what Ed Brown said during a press conference Monday. Brown and his wife were convicted earlier this year for not paying more than $1 million in income tax -- a law, by the way, they do not recognize. ( "There is no law. We looked and looked.")

Since the conviction, the Browns have holed up in their New Hampshire home, and the feds have been trying to talk them out -- without, they say, the threat of violence. Last week, the authorities cut off the Browns' power, phone and Internet, though the Browns say they have backup systems in place.

Photo via The AP. Behind Brown? Randy Weaver, survivor of the Ruby Ridge standoff.

Link to the Browns official site.

Comments

[A]

Come on you idiot, pay your tax bill like the rest of us and get on with your life.

[G]

Some people think he's a hero, A. Some really gullible people.

[unnamed assailant]

Over a hundred million a day on a war that nobody wants. Bush wanting to cut social programs to save money (LOL!). I don't blame the guy for not paying taxes. Why do the masses have to pay for the games of the wealthy and which only benefit the wealthy. I say f@$# the IRS.

Oop's I am probably being audited now!

[onetime]

I can see why...shoot what's his name...Randy Quaid? played Weaver in the movie. Looks alike. Can you really not find a law saying pay your taxes?

[Anthony]

There is NO LAW people! Watch the movie "America: Freedom to Fascism" on Google Video or YouTube FOR FREE to see where Ed & Elaine are coming from. The movie includes several IRS employees who, out of good conscience, had to quit the IRS when they found that there is NO LAW that forces people to pay the FEDERAL INCOME TAX.

Wake up folks! Educate yourselves!

[Jim Depkin]

It's quiet simple. Just post or show the law that describes the constitutional reason for the Federal government to be able to seize a part of our labor by force. If there's no law, then those that advocate for the government's position are merely agreeing with the old feudal adage that Might Makes Right.

America was supposed to be a moving away from feudalism, wasn't it?

[jpbikerfreak]

Income tax is theft at best, fractional slavery at worst.

Unfortunately for these people they can't read. The 16th amendment legalizes theft and fractional slavery, and paved the way for a domestic terrorist organization known as the IRS.

Let's repeal the 16th legally and do away with the IRS through democratic means.

If anyone really cares?

[Jim Depkin]

jpbikerfreak said: "a domestic terrorist organization known as the IRS."

The IRS functions in America as the KGB did in Russia. It's an intelligence gathering operation used to stifle dissent and opposition to centralized government power.

[jpbikerfreak]

Agreed, Jim.

Without it the feds have very little power. With it, they have the power to destroy whomever they choose. After all, the power to tax is the power to destroy, right?

Just look at the drug issues. The feds have no authority to outlaw drugs, so they passed a tax on them, then never issue the tax stamps. You get nailed for tax evasion at the federal level, not posession.

And I don't believe any human being alive understands the Internal Revenue Code. It's completely a matter of interpretation. As Albert Einstein once said, (paraphrased) "There is nothing so impeneterable to the human mind as the U.S. Tax Code".

[Jim Depkin]

"And I don't believe any human being alive understands the Internal Revenue Code."

The IR Code is purposefully cumbersome and vague so that any IRS agent can find any excuse in the tax code to bust any citizen they have their eyes on.

[I Know]

Mention federal taxes and the whacko's come out of the woodwork.

IRS is now the KGB. God I love it. How about, the people who buck the tax system are the nutjobs that lend themselves to these types of headlines.

I believe they bring it upon themselves as opposed to the IRS seeking them out, wouldn't you? After all, he didn't pay his taxes. Now its their job to go make him pay.

Granted, they'll quickly surpass the million dollar mark getting it from him, but that's never been the point before.

[jpbikerfreak]

Whacko... nutjob... great way to win a deabte there, I know.

Anyone who opposes our current punative system of taxation must be a nutjob? Why?

We got along just fine without it for about 137 years... I guess everyone from 1776 to 1913 is a nut job?

Wow, thankfully normal, rational, sane people came to the rescue and created the 16th amendment!

[JJHawq]

Ironic that the document he quotes "the constitution" is the very document that empowers the government to tax incomes.

His argument should be that the 16th ammendment is unconstitutional...

[jpbikerfreak]

Agreed, JJhawg. That's the real problem.

Question for all you who like our current system:

Would you go to your neighbor and take part of his income by force, to re-distribute to whatever programs you see fit? If not, why do you expect your government to do it for you?

It's theft. It matters not who does the stealing... you or your government. At least have the gall to steal it yourself.

[aqua]

Here is a 3 minute clip that will put this in perspective:

Now we see the violence inherent in the system

[Steve in KC]

Yeah, that's brilliant. Get rid of the IRS overnight. Uh...do you honestly have any idea of the amount of federal funding that goes into public schools, road construction, healthcare, etc etc etc? If we yanked the plug on the IRS without a solid plan, we would be screwed...oh but wait, we'd have more money in our pockets. Brilliant.

[tired]

What a bunch of hippie liberals. These people are always the ones that are trying to overpower/over throw the government, but are first in line to take the handouts.
pure junk

[jpbikerfreak]

Road construction could be supported with user fees... such as car registration and the gasoline tax.

AS for social programs, I'm all for eliminating them. Private charities do a much better job than our welfare state could ever hope to. Separation of education and state is also not a bad idea. Private schools can educate our kids better for less than half the tuition charged by our failing public schools.

I suppose we should all just be thankful we don't get all the government we pay for, because the more the government gets involved the more screwed up and expensive everything gets.

Tired, I'm not a hippie, nor am I a liberal, nor have I ever received a dime of welfare money.

[I Know]

Well, nutjobs and whackos they are. Sorry.

Oppose the tax system? I never said the like. Sure the tax system is broke. But you still gotta play by the rules. I'd fully support a very streamlined tax code.

What worked 100 to 200 years ago couldn't imaginably work now and most likely wouldn't work another 100 years from now. You don't honestly believe your own racket do you? Imagine what taxes covered 200 years ago. Interstates, advanced military, schools, federal programs too lengthy to even imagine listing? No, don't think so. If you believe any government can survive on tax principals from two centuries ago, refer to my very first sentence.

If you think federal taxes are so unjust, I'd encourage you to avoid everything in your life made possible by taxes. If you don't pay, you shouldn't have the right to use the services. And that's just about everything in your life.

The 16th amendment is very simple and just. Its the politicians that muddy it up, as they do everything.

I'll never argue that the government does everything right or even anything perfectly or that it isn't corrupt and filled with waste. But it is what it is and without actual useful services that are provided, life as known today would be impossible.

Pay up and move on. If you can derive a better system that helps more people with less waste, please do so, I'd like to save some money. Until then, I'll keep complaining and paying.

[CPA]

The 16th Amendment reads:

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

It is a law people. In addition, we have the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended. That is law too. Passed by the Congress and signed by the President. Originally Reagan and amended by every one of them since. It is so large that to get a copy in print big enough to read you need two books almost 3 inches thick on very thin paper.

Maybe there are some people out there that believe that some tortured reading of these laws says the IRS cannot collect income taxes. However, these claims have been tried in courts and found not to be valid.

If you don't like the law, then you can use the political system to try to change it. In the meantime, if you don't pay your taxes you will go to jail. That is the price of civil disobedience.

[Gunny]

Could it be that those who support the taxing of American citizens make enough money not to feel the dent in their bank accounts? It doesn't matter to them, so no support for us "lower class" that makes this Country what it is. If there is some way to fight this taxation legally and without going to jail. Sign me up! But remember.. as the 16th Amendments states.."The Congress shall have power ,,," Now THAT is scary as he#$.!

[JDog]

Like it or not, every country has a method of taking monies from the general population and businesses in order to form armies to protect borders, (or expand in some cases), to build schools, roads, bridges, etc.
Does anyone out there really believe that a country could survive without this process? Oh, sure, a few individuals could survive, but could a country?
Either you're an American or not, (music playing in the background), pay your share.
This is not a Bush problem, or Clinton, or FDR or Adams. As jp pointed out it has been a part of our Constitution since 1913.
Our BEEF should be what our Gov't does with the money, not whether they have the right to collect it; (music ends).

[You're a Mean Drunk R2D2™]

I'd love to see the IRS removed and if we do need some taxes, reduce what the government spends on worthless crap that isn't needed and leave my money alone!

[jpbikerfreak]

CPA, I'm trying to right it politcally through democratic means. But I get comments like the ones from I know telling me to just shut up and pay the bill... don't use our services.. if you don't like it get the hell out, etc.

It used to be in America you could voice your opinion and ask for change. Now you just get told to leave, branded a wacko, nutjob, etc.

BTW, I know, why don't you think what worked 200 years ago can work today? Who says we need the gargantuan government we currently have?

If we stripped out all the pork, we would still be able to afford the best military in the world, and maintain our place as a superpower.

As it stands right now, I believe about half our money goes just to pay the interest on the federal debt anyway. And that doesn't count the 15% we pay into socialist insecurity (Yes, I said 15, because I count the employer's half). and medicaire / medicaid.

The system is headed for collapse under its own weight, just a matter of time.

[OhMy]

Personally, I think I'd rather pay my taxes than die.....but that's just me.

[WWW]

In my Utopia...

Maybe you guys should be a little more realistic??

[KC Brougham]

If you think it's bad now, imagine Obama as President.

[KC Brougham]

Hillary: "We need to hit those 401Ks HARD!"

[KC Brougham]

Jesse Jackson @ democratic convention: We need to take money from pension funds to build houses for people to live!

[jpbikerfreak]

Oh ya, KC, don't count on getting your money out of your 401k without getting nailed one way or another.

The government is going to figure out a way to get into any pool of money that large just sitting around. Like a pack of wolves guarding sheep...

[jpbikerfreak]

People like Jesse Jackson are good at giving away other people's money. But I don't see him giving up any limo rides or $500.00 suits to build any houses....

[KCPowerGuy]

WHAT!
All of those in favor of the IRS have no idea where the money goes. The direct apportioned tax was deemed illegal in the constitution but over ruled by the 16th amendment. It is time to limit gov't spending, and by taking our hard earned money back we can do just that. As for those who belive that tax money pays for anything ask the school districts where all that "gambling tax" money went. For those who think that Dem's raise taxes and Repb's don't... Bush has raised taxes by 436 BILLION dollars to date and maintained tax breaks for the oil industry and airline industry...

[Holden McCrank]

Jim Depkin: "Just post or show the law that describes the constitutional reason for the Federal government to be able to seize a part of our labor by force."

How about the 16th Amendment to the Constitution and Title 26 of the US Code?

SHHHHPANK!!! What's that sound? It's the sound of Jimmy's butt getting spanked, and him running home crying to his mommy. You lose. You and your dippie-hippie, patchouli smelling friends. Want roads? Schools? Police? Internet? Broadcast TV? Protection? Then you sit down, you shut up, you pay your taxes, and you do what your betters tell you.

PWNT!

[bob]

"All the property that is necessary to a man for the conservation of the individual and the propagation of the species is his natural right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all property superfluous to such purposes is the property of the public, who by their laws have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it, whenever the welfare of the public shall demand such disposition. He that does not like civil society on these terms, let him retire and live among savages."
Benjamin Franklin (hippy liberal)
Letter to Robert Morris, 1783

[Semi-anon]

Good lord, you guys are hi-larious.

Uh, guess what? NO ONE is in charge. Your government (you) stumbles around doing what it has always done until it runs into a brick wall. Then they change direction semi-randomly and start over.

Meanwhile, babies die (highest infant mortality rate in the so-called developed world. Go USA!) and the oil flows.

Thanks for playing.

[Onan the Barbarian]

Uh, Semi-anon, you do realize that the reason we have high infant mortality rate is due to the fact that we shovel "defective" babies into neonatal care, whereas other countries don't and count them as "stillborn," which is a different category for them.

That high infant mortality rate for the US is a long-descredited urban legend, entirely due to differences in how we count things.

Thanks for playing, but you lose.

[Ceronomus]

Another crank, but this time one that is threatening violence. Just shoot him and be done with it.

[jpbikerfreak]

Who is threatening violence, ceromonus?

[Chris]

America is a great country, but you can't live in it for free.

And, if you could, it wouldn't be so great! I promise...

[jpbikerfreak]

I don't think anyone wants to live in it for free, Chris. Some of us just don't like income tax.

User fees, sales tax, tarriffs, use taxes, etc., are all fine in my book. But don't force me into fractional slavery.

[Dan]

I am a 60 yr old, single male, employed full time by a small privately owned company and my tax liability usually runs around 25% of my total income. I have heard (no factual confirmation) that a great many multi-billion dollar corps have a similar liability that works out to about 6-8% of the corps' annual income (this due to a plethora of loopholes and deductions and "special arrangements"). Again, I don't have any proof of this but I'm sure the proof is available. What's the problem with a flat, across the board 15% tax on all individuals and corporations? No deductions, no loopholes, no special treatment.
Just a loosely organized thought.

[jpbikerfreak]

Another wild-eyed wacko joins the discussion... LOL.

It'll never happen, Dan. That takes away all the power of the feds to be social engineers, plus give breaks and kickbacks to their buddies.

[Churchhills_dog]

It wasn't until the Jew bankers talked our government into getting off the gold standard did the shit hit the fan.

[Chris]

You know if you were african american living in pre 1965 USA, you'd be pretty thankful for the federal government. Likewise, had the USSR army come aross Alaska in the 1980's you sure would appreciate the US military... Look, all I'm saying is that you get what you pay for, they don't pay much in taxes in Sudan, do they?

[jpbikerfreak]

I'll give you your first two points, Chris. But again, it doesn't have to be funded through income tax.

Using other countries as examples is always dangerous. But, countries aren't made great by oppressive taxation, that's for sure.

And btw, DAn, you're paying CONSIDERABLY more than 25%... if you add up everything, it's probably more like 60%.

[you're a numbskull]

"What a bunch of hippie liberals. These people are always the ones that are trying to overpower/over throw the government, but are first in line to take the handouts.
pure junk" . . .

um, yeah... just so you know - it's usually the conservatives/Republicans that are against taxation Steve in KC. We need taxes to fund things like schools, roads, etc. Unfortunately the money is NOT being put to good use right now. There's a difference in the reasons people are not paying taxes - some, like these people, think it's unconsitutional or just not a law. Others are doing it now b/c they oppose the war and what our money is being used for. Don't blame the liberals for this one buddy, I guarantee more of your own people are against taxes. Why do you think the uber-rich (and more likely, Republicans) get the tax cuts why the people in the middle get the crap taxed out of them. But then you little pawns just follow along now don't you? And blame the liberals. What a load of crap!

[butler]

To the comment about the 16th amendment legalizing income taxes. Numerous Supreme Court decisions can be found that show it does not allow for a tax on labor. This is un-disputed. The reason that the Brown's stopped attending their trial is because the Judge refused to let them bring in those cases as evidence. The government is lying. Brown is a Patriot.

[cwha]

Just wondering where Elaine studied dentistry. I hope none of my income taxes went to subsidize the school that she earned her degree that she used to make 200K+ a year. If so I want my money back. Even private schools get tax breaks/financial support from the gov't, so she had no problem using the tax payers money when she needed it.

[Chris]

Oddly enough I don't much mind paying (reasonable) federal taxes - I support the idea of medicare, social security, a strong military, environmental protections and regulations protecting food and medicine... Of course there are pet projects and wasteful spending that is unjustified, but I'd focus on that instead of just dismissing the whole idea of a federal system of government supported by taxation.
But you're right, we are probably paying closer to like 60% in fees and taxes - that's a lot of waste and I'd love to see that brought under control.

[CPA]

First, even though I am a tax accountant I am not a big fan of the IRS, or of the way our government spends the money.

Second, all you folks who accuse "wealthy" people of loving the IRS should know that that I pay more in just federal income tax in a year than most low income people earn. But I don't mind, because I feel blessed to make that kind of money and there was a time when I lived from hand to mouth as well. I do remember what that was like.

I think the current system is unworkable and I do not expect to ever collect my social security, so I save like mad.

Finally, I don't call people names because that does nothing to advance my ideas. But... Brown is not a Patriot. We live in a society of laws. If there really were "numerous" Supreme Court decisions stating that the constitution does not allow a tax on labor, the lower courts would be required to follow them. And by that I mean clearly stated, because of course, even Supreme Court decisions are subject to interpretation by the lower courts.

You can't just take one little comment in a court case about something else (often called dicta in legal terms) and go, a ha, they can't due that. I suspect that is why the judge is not allowing it. Furthermore, do you have any idea how many people have tried to advance these same arguements and have been struck down, not by one judge, but doezens, maybe hundreds over the years. Legally these arguements do not stand up.

If you really believe that the system needs to be changed. Register to vote. Join a political movement. Support a candidate. Don't refuse to participate in a court case and try to make yourself a martyr. Too many gulible people have believed the crap spewed by the anti-IRS crowd and been hurt by it. If the Browns really believe they are being wronged, the cost of their civil disobedience is jail. Anything else is just putting others at risk.