6 dead, 2 injured in Kirkwood City Hall shooting

UPDATED, Friday afternoon: Thornton's wife is a principal in Florida; story doesn't mention if they were separated. Jason and Laura have an updated story from Kirkwood, including this from Thornton's brother:

Surrounded by a crush of reporters, Gerald Thornton, two years Charles’ senior and one of nine siblings, verged on obstinate in his defense of his brother’s actions.

When asked if he felt for his brother’s victims, Thornton said: “No one wants to see loss of life over issues that should’ve been solved. We have educated people over there and they should’ve been able to see the things they were doing should’ve came to an end sooner.”

More blogger reaction here, here, here and this one from a former colleague of Connie Karr, a councilwoman who was killed.

UPDATED, later Friday morning: Janet McNichols, a P-D writer at the meeting, talks about the shooting on this video. Here's CNN's take, along with a comment from Thornton's brother:

"The only way that I can put it in a context that you might understand is that my brother went to war tonight with the people that were of the government that was putting torment and strife into his life," Thornton told KMOV.

"And he had spoke on it as best he could in the courts, and they denied him all access to the rights of protection, and therefore he took it upon himself to go to war and end the issue."

Oh, and this from Thornton's mom, via the New York Times:

She said she never suspected that her son would be violent but described the events as “an act of God, just like a storm or a tornado.”

Riiiight, just like an act of God.

Here's a video report from NBC with on-the-ground reporting provided by KSDK.

UPDATED, Friday morning: The Star's Jason Noble is on the scene in Kirkwood. Mike Rice has a story noting the shooter, Thornton, had something like 100 misdemeanor convictions, most of them for housing-code violations.

And for any former Kirksville or Truman State University people in the audience, Charles Thornton is a former track star there, a Hall of Famer no less. (One of my relatives remembers meeting him once.) From KTVO:

Charles Lee "Cookie" Thornton was a track standout at then Northeast Missouri State University in the late 70's.  School records for indoor and outdoor high jump set by Thornton in 1979 still stand.

UPDATED: Here's more about Thornton and his battles with the city council. Basically, he acted up so badly that he got arrested for disorderly conduct during their meetings. That led to a court battle. And now this. Here's a link to the City of Kirkwood's web presence. And a good take from a St. Louis blogger, Life As I Know It.

This one's hard to swallow, folks. Kirkwood isn't a violent place; it's the quintessential American suburb. The gunman apparently had nursed several grudges against the city government for years.

I have heard it said before that if anger festers in a person long enough it will eventually express itself violently. Such is the case here. Five innocent citizens woke up this morning not knowing this was their last day on Earth.

The P-D has a list of the long, sad history of courthouse/city hall shootings.

UPDATED: True Crime Weblog has a post about Thornton here. A heartbreaking post here from "From The Rear View Mirror, a Kirkwood native:

My heart is broken. I know those people. All of them.

Two policemen, three city council members and maybe the mayor.

5 dead in Kirkwood.

Please say it isn't so.

What's happening to us?

As several people have noted, Kirkwood might sound familiar because that's where Michael Devlin kept those two boys captive. Powerful essay here from a St. Louis-area teacher whose fiance is a policeman. From "Brushes With Adulthood" ...

We live in a society that glorifies violence–I think I can claim that as fact. We are society that results to violence, that chants revenge, and in the wake of this event, my heart aches for that society that cannot find a way to resolve a situation without violence.

We can blame this on mental instability. We can blame it on the harassment. We can blame it on the guns, the video games, the economy, race– but the bottom line is blame and scapegoats solve no more than the guns do.

We can say these murders were senseless, but as Kingsolver asserts, “‘Senseless’ sounds like ‘without cause,’ and it requires no action, so that after an appropriate interval of dismayed handwringing, we can go back to business as usual.”

How can we go back to business as usual? How can we not demand change? How can we not begin to determine WHY.

PREVIOUSLY: Just monstrous. Two of the dead are police officers, one is councilwoman. (Death count includes the jackass responsible for all this.) Two others injured, including a reporter covering the meeting. Will have more soon.

Police say the shooter was a man named Charles Lee Thornton, sort of a town crank, the Post-Dispatch reports.

Thornton was not a stranger to the council, where he was often a contentious presence. In May 2006, he was handcuffed and pulled from a meeting. He was charged with disorderly conduct and released.

McNichols said he often aimed his ire at the mayor and at Yost.

Late last month, a federal judge in St. Louis dismissed a lawsuit in which Thornton, representing himself, claimed Kirkwood officials violated his free speech rights by prohibiting him from speaking out at meetings.

Top Image: AP Photo/St. Louis Post-Dispatch, J.B. Forbes, Bottom Image: (AP Photo/Post-Dispatch, Robert Cohen)

Comments

[KC Cicero]

No doubt Mr. Nutty-as-a-fruitcake had no difficulty geting a gun to use. Wouldn't we all be safer if nuts like this were limited to hurling insults instead of bullets?

[KIRKWOOD VICTIMS]

GET A CLUE EVERYONE! In two years the Kirkwood Police have driven normal everyday people to shoot cops!!! Hellooooo!

I think there is a strong message that should be heard here, the police in small municipalities should act accordingly, with COMPASSION and integrity! They should have an internal affairs department that does something when the police officers act out of line, and have a higher division deciding over their actions.

The police in areas of St Louis located in small municipalities conduct themselves in a manner that is scandalous! Police in townships like Bella Villa, Shrewsbury, Kirkwood, Creve Coeur, Saint George.....write tickets and treat the people on the streets in an extremely antagonistic and harassing manner.

I was entering Bella Villa traffic court one evening where an elderly woman in her 80's was taken by surprise while a younger police officer with a disfigured face screamed at her in military fashion "MOVE! MOVE! MOVE! MOVE!" threatening to throw her in jail, berating her into tears, gasping for her breath and eventually a heart attack where she had to be taken away in an ambulance as the officer looked on and was laughing....all because she was parked in the wrong parking spot and was trying to apologize as she was moving. I tried reporting him a couple days later and THERE WAS NO ONE TO REPORT IT TO, NOTHING COULD BE DONE! No one has authority over what these small precincts do to people.

This is a very bad government when someone has the authority to do anything they want to you, even if its unjust.

Kirkwood police give parking tickets in excess of $50 each to some people on the same car, sometimes 5 of these in a matter of hours, while laughing at you for it and telling you "Om gonna get you whenever I can!" with gleam in their eyes like they really did something to laugh about! Who can afford this on random days, weekly?

When cops in a small area are getting shot as often as they are in an area like this, you have to ask yourself why. Most people are glad to have business and commerce in their area, they are tax payers for Christ Sake!

This shooter was a business man with several trucks, all getting ticketed at once, multiple times a day for being inches one way or the other, aside from getting pulled over multiple times in a single day for just driving down the street!

IN THREE YEARS he had EIGHTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS IN PARKING TICKETS ALONE! Thats $500 a month! Who can afford this sadistic harassment?

I'm not saying its right to go shooting up a town but you have to see that this town drove this guy to what he did and asked for it!

Sick Sadistic Cops Need To Wake Up or their day will come when they drive some person over the edge!

Two years ago a Kirkwood cop shot an innocent teen who was uninvolved in anything....by mistake and was obviously exonerated because he was still on the job when the deceased teens brother shot and killed that cop. Oh Boo Hoo Hoo! After the cop was killed, most of the Kirkwood residents made comments amongst themselves and their close friends....he was a real jerk, it was no surprise.

Yes I feel bad for their wives and children, of coarse I do but how would their wives and children feel if they knew their police officer husband/father treated people like substandard citizens the way they often do? They would be ashamed to call some of these men their husband/father. If they only knew how sadistic some of these men can be when they misuse their authority or go above and beyond the law to torment people.

ITS ALL ABOUT KARMA GUYS! THE BIG MAN UPSTAIRS IS WATCHING! WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND!

[KIRKWOOD VICTIMS]

GET A CLUE EVERYONE! In two years the Kirkwood Police have driven normal everyday people to shoot cops!!! Hellooooo!

I think there is a strong message that should be heard here, the police in small municipalities should act accordingly, with COMPASSION and integrity! They should have an internal affairs department that does something when the police officers act out of line, and have a higher division deciding over their actions.

The police in areas of St Louis located in small municipalities conduct themselves in a manner that is scandalous! Police in townships like Bella Villa, Shrewsbury, Kirkwood, Creve Coeur, Saint George.....write tickets and treat the people on the streets in an extremely antagonistic and harassing manner.

I was entering Bella Villa traffic court one evening where an elderly woman in her 80's was taken by surprise while a younger police officer with a disfigured face screamed at her in military fashion "MOVE! MOVE! MOVE! MOVE!" threatening to throw her in jail, berating her into tears, gasping for her breath and eventually a heart attack where she had to be taken away in an ambulance as the officer looked on and was laughing....all because she was parked in the wrong parking spot and was trying to apologize as she was moving. I tried reporting him a couple days later and THERE WAS NO ONE TO REPORT IT TO, NOTHING COULD BE DONE! No one has authority over what these small precincts do to people.

This is a very bad government when someone has the authority to do anything they want to you, even if its unjust.

Kirkwood police give parking tickets in excess of $50 each to some people on the same car, sometimes 5 of these in a matter of hours, while laughing at you for it and telling you "Om gonna get you whenever I can!" with gleam in their eyes like they really did something to laugh about! Who can afford this on random days, weekly?

When cops in a small area are getting shot as often as they are in an area like this, you have to ask yourself why. Most people are glad to have business and commerce in their area, they are tax payers for Christ Sake!

This shooter was a business man with several trucks, all getting ticketed at once, multiple times a day for being inches one way or the other, aside from getting pulled over multiple times in a single day for just driving down the street!

IN THREE YEARS he had EIGHTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS IN PARKING TICKETS ALONE! Thats $500 a month! Who can afford this sadistic harassment?

I'm not saying its right to go shooting up a town but you have to see that this town drove this guy to what he did and asked for it!

Sick Sadistic Cops Need To Wake Up or their day will come when they drive some person over the edge!

Two years ago a Kirkwood cop shot an innocent teen who was uninvolved in anything....by mistake and was obviously exonerated because he was still on the job when the deceased teens brother shot and killed that cop. Oh Boo Hoo Hoo! After the cop was killed, most of the Kirkwood residents made comments amongst themselves and their close friends....he was a real jerk, it was no surprise.

Yes I feel bad for their wives and children, of coarse I do but how would their wives and children feel if they knew their police officer husband/father treated people like substandard citizens the way they often do? They would be ashamed to call some of these men their husband/father. If they only knew how sadistic some of these men can be when they misuse their authority or go above and beyond the law to torment people.

ITS ALL ABOUT KARMA GUYS! THE BIG MAN UPSTAIRS IS WATCHING! WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND!

[KIRKWOOD VICTIMS]

GET A CLUE EVERYONE! In two years the Kirkwood Police have driven normal everyday people to shoot cops!!! Hellooooo!

I think there is a strong message that should be heard here, the police in small municipalities should act accordingly, with COMPASSION and integrity! They should have an internal affairs department that does something when the police officers act out of line, and have a higher division deciding over their actions.

The police in areas of St Louis located in small municipalities conduct themselves in a manner that is scandalous! Police in townships like Bella Villa, Shrewsbury, Kirkwood, Creve Coeur, Saint George.....write tickets and treat the people on the streets in an extremely antagonistic and harassing manner.

I was entering Bella Villa traffic court one evening where an elderly woman in her 80's was taken by surprise while a younger police officer with a disfigured face screamed at her in military fashion "MOVE! MOVE! MOVE! MOVE!" threatening to throw her in jail, berating her into tears, gasping for her breath and eventually a heart attack where she had to be taken away in an ambulance as the officer looked on and was laughing....all because she was parked in the wrong parking spot and was trying to apologize as she was moving. I tried reporting him a couple days later and THERE WAS NO ONE TO REPORT IT TO, NOTHING COULD BE DONE! No one has authority over what these small precincts do to people.

This is a very bad government when someone has the authority to do anything they want to you, even if its unjust.

Kirkwood police give parking tickets in excess of $50 each to some people on the same car, sometimes 5 of these in a matter of hours, while laughing at you for it and telling you "Om gonna get you whenever I can!" with gleam in their eyes like they really did something to laugh about! Who can afford this on random days, weekly?

When cops in a small area are getting shot as often as they are in an area like this, you have to ask yourself why. Most people are glad to have business and commerce in their area, they are tax payers for Christ Sake!

This shooter was a business man with several trucks, all getting ticketed at once, multiple times a day for being inches one way or the other, aside from getting pulled over multiple times in a single day for just driving down the street!

IN THREE YEARS he had EIGHTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS IN PARKING TICKETS ALONE! Thats $500 a month! Who can afford this sadistic harassment?

I'm not saying its right to go shooting up a town but you have to see that this town drove this guy to what he did and asked for it!

Sick Sadistic Cops Need To Wake Up or their day will come when they drive some person over the edge!

Two years ago a Kirkwood cop shot an innocent teen who was uninvolved in anything....by mistake and was obviously exonerated because he was still on the job when the deceased teens brother shot and killed that cop. Oh Boo Hoo Hoo! After the cop was killed, most of the Kirkwood residents made comments amongst themselves and their close friends....he was a real jerk, it was no surprise.

Yes I feel bad for their wives and children, of coarse I do but how would their wives and children feel if they knew their police officer husband/father treated people like substandard citizens the way they often do? They would be ashamed to call some of these men their husband/father. If they only knew how sadistic some of these men can be when they misuse their authority or go above and beyond the law to torment people.

ITS ALL ABOUT KARMA GUYS! THE BIG MAN UPSTAIRS IS WATCHING! WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND!

[Kirkwood Resident]

I know the Kirkwood police. They are friendly and very helpful unlike other manicupalities in the St. Louis area. Take Ballwin for example who, for no sense or reason harass innocent and law abiding citizens for no other reason than they have nothing better to do but bully their residents. That is why their town is turning to crap. Kirkwood however, is different. I have never seen a town's city hall or police department so nice and so helpful. Call anyone else's city hall, and they are absolutely rude and not cooperative. But Kirkwood has been simply the opposite. Nice and helpful. This isn't "Karma". This is a tragedy in the worse form. People don't deserve to die. My understanding is this is over parking tickets that he refused to pay or change over a three foot move of a vehicle. Three feet? That seems like some pettiness was arised to me. I pray for the victims. I pray for the officers families and the city councils'. This is a horrid situation and they absolutely did NOT deserve this! "Harassing" never justifies a bullet. NEVER. If Karma is so highly responsible, maybe that is why he got shot down right after he shot all those people. Just a thought.

[Nick]

My understanding is this is over parking tickets that he refused to pay or change over a three foot move of a vehicle. Three feet? That seems like some pettiness was arised to me. - KR

So are you saying that the city did indeed dig their heels in and actually decided the solution to dealing with an obstinate town crank was to be equally bull headed and stack thousands upon thousands of dollars in fines over what I assume is a parking dispute?

God, I hope that isn't the case

[j]

It looks like the moonbats were up late last night....

[big dreamer]

Ok now that is ridiculous. Conspiracy theorists unite! Why is it we never want to blame the idiot who is pulling the trigger. Hold the person responsibile for what they did. Gosh Wally, wouldn't that be swell! Nooo instead we need to find a way to displace blame and put it on other people. The guy was TRYING to do the right thing but was not intelligent enough to represent himself nor to hire an attorney. The First Amendment does not protect you if you are being stupid with your comments. Free speech does not include Libel and name-calling like a child. I do not care what this guys beef was with the city, a gun and murder is NEVER an answer. This was a grown man who should know better but what else should we expect of people these days. In the crazy messed up world the gun seems to be everyones answer. Ignorance...that is all it is...plain, simple ignorance.

[DSW]

I have read alot about this and it sounds like the guy snapped. He had thousands of dollars in parking fines. How the he l l does that happen? What cop goes out and tickets the same vechile everyday just because he can?

Im not saying they deserved bullets but I figure this guy figured he had no way to pay that (most of us dont) and had no other means of recourse.

Sad over all. I hope after people get better or pass on that someone in a higher ups take a look at what really happened here. The gun man knew he was dead when he went to the meeting that night.

[Caroline]

This is very sad. I'm a native St. Louisan and Kirkwood is very close to my family's home. It really is a nice, quiet, community-driven place with a great history and this is the second major tragedy to happen there in recent times. This is the same community where Michael Devlin lived.

I certainly don't think that the Kirkwood police harass anyone. We'll see where the investigation leads.

[Street]

Wow, this is something we Truman State alums can really be proud of.
And seriously, those people died because this man was evil. Not because the police were oppressive. Not because of parking tickets. Not any of those things. This man was a vindictive murderer. Many people are mistreated in this world. Few resort to this.

[Josephine McNeal]

We have to call them what they are, EVIL. People are stressed out and without Jesus Christ in your life you have no restraint to keep you from this awful act of committing murder in "cold blood".

We had better begin to start meetings praying for protection to keep the enemy out, because sometimes he's right there in the mist of you.
mcneal

I visit the STL area about three times a year and I have witnessed officers in action on my own. Not to say he was right but the officers in these small municipalities are out of control! God bless all the people involved.

[Give us a break!]

Come on, Kirkwood Victims, not only is your comment as long as the article, but you had to post it 3 TIMES???

[fyi]

Its unbelievable that anyone would try to provide a valid reason for this animals actions in killing innocent people.

His brother says he went to war? What he did was murder Police Officers and innocent, unarmed citizens.

The article states most of the violations / convictions were for housing code violations, not traffic tickets, as asserted by some.

The only good that came from this was the Police putting this animal down before he killed more innocent lives.

Those of you who believe there is a valid reason for this animal killing innocent lives need psychological help, please seek it!

[816-314]

It's a sad day in Kirkwood. For someone with intimate knowledge of the victims involved and also Cookie (the shooter), it is difficult to process. There is no excuse for the horrific pain he has unleashed on a community already hurting and stewing in racial tension. However, it is also wrong to frame this situation within the moments between the trigger-pulls. At times like these, people seem to take comfort in the cut and dry labeling of good versus evil and black versus white. Although this is a natural reaction, it is a defensive tool that ultimately divides us further. I don't think anyone involved would have ever predicted this tragic end to a decade's long conflict. But as the shock subsided, those close to both sides are now realizing the warning signs were ignored and we are in a deeper chasm than ever before. I pray for all the families and the entire Kirkwood community.

Somebody needs to do the same thing to the Wyandotte County Rental Inspections office. Those idiots will make you spend $5000 in repairs, then thumb their nose at you by admitting that the house would be fine without the repairs but that they have the power to make your life hell if they don't like you. I used to have to deal with them. I can't definitely understand where the guy in Kirkwood is coming from.

[j]

Yeah, that's a good reason to blow somebody's head off.

Stupid animals.

[GetThatThroughYourThickSkull]

James please track down the idiot who posted that "he definitely understands where the shooter is coming from" and out him to the cops before he kills one of us. Geezuz....the same cranks that defend these isiots are the ones who would go crazy if their loved one was hurt.
I'm just glad the moron offed himself so we didn't have to give him publicity and pay for the cost of a trial.
As for the idiots brother...well, its obvious they are some genetic defects in thier family tree. I suspect that moron will have some problems living down the callous remarks he made. Maybe some vigilante will get a ready available gun and hunt him down. Oh well....Good Riddance to him too.

[JUSTICE]

If the brother knew of the plan and did nothing to stop it or warn the city. He will be facing five or six counts of accessory to commit murder, and or six counts manslaughter. The brother is just as guilty as the murderer.
Especially with his comments to defend the killer.

[DSW]

What a hypocrite you attack the shooter’s character without knowing any of the facts. Then you are glad we don’t have to worry about giving him a fair trial. Then you think it’s a good idea for someone to become a “vigilante” and kill his brother. Like I said what a hypocrite.

YOU KNOW NOTHING YET. Let the facts come out. I think you will see someone harassed this person to his breaking point. Is it right hell no. But it happens. How would you feel if the city came in took your business took your home though fines you could not pay. What would you do?

[ME]

You people need to read the story a bit better He was a contractor who was violating city codes so he was getting ticketed. You haev to follow building codes and city codes and processes and licensing requirements when you are a contractor. Just as when you drive, you are to follow traffic laws. If you don't follow them you risk getting a ticket. As a former employee in a city government codes department, I've seen people get angry when they don't get their way. Throwing temper tantrums and acting out at council meetings is not the way to work to an agreement. Neither is killing people. People need to stop spouting nonsense about harassment and this is what the government drives people to and start looking at WHY this was happening. Everyone has the right to VOTE to change the elected officials in the cities they live in. GET INVOLVED IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My condolences go out to the family and friends of those murdered last night, and to the entire city of Kirkwood.

[bigalsbeans]

DSW, I think its pretty obvious that this guy was a flippin' idiot, so I think attacking his character is justified. Especially after watching his mother's comments on tv (something to the effect he shot the ones he had a problem with) I really question the whole family's character. No matter how he was treated, does he have the right to just gun people down? He lost his lawsuit, multiple reports tell how he was basically a complete idiot at the council meetings, its just too bad the cop outside couldn't shoot him first.

I don't think his only recourse was to shoot several people.

I think when the facts all come out they will show that this guy was a complete idiot deserving completely the spot in hell that he gets to occupy!

[David]

The sad thing is, it all started over something stupid. I am a bailbondsman and trust me, 98% of my clients are in jail over traffic violations. The jails are full of them. It all amounts to the mighthy dollar. There is more money to be collected from traffic violators as opposed to murderers, rapists and drug dealers.
The situation in Kirkwood was very sad. They pushed a man to his limit, but instead of packing up and moving elsewhere he took matters into his own hands. This is also a reminder of how useless signs are that say, NO GUNS ALLOWED, that did not matter to him. Maybe if someone inside had been armed he would have been dead sooner.

[Jim]

To justify shooting innocent people bacause you are mad at the government is beyond ridiculous. His brothers feeble attempts at giving excuses for his murderous spree and his mothers comments with both showing no remorse for the victims tells me they have family "issues". And no the brother should not be subject to vigilante justice but I'm glad he spoke up. Now we know another idiot in that family exists.

[I'm rich b*tch!]

It's about time a person that goes "crazy" is black. It's usually a white guy.

[DSW]

All I am saying is lets see what the full report says in a couple of months. I would like to know what all those fines where for. Where they traffic fines, building code fines, or his house building code fines (sorry might be saying that wrong). He is a fool for not getting an attorney and "go to war" like most Americans do when they are wronged by the government, sue the crap out of them.

And before anyone else says I need "psychological help" might I add I was just bringing up points of what might of been wrong with the guy. I think he was mentally disturbed. I think the whole family might have issues since they think the man was in the right. Or of course it maybe the family's way of dealing with what there son/brother has done.

He had no right in killing those people. What I was saying is the city "MAY" of pushed him to his breaking point. Everyone has a breaking point some peoples is just really low sadly (road rage people come to mind).

[Dave]

Kirkwood Victims,

Get your facts straight. Two years ago, a cop DID NOT shoot Kevin Johnson's brother. Kevin Johnson thought they failed to help his brother who had a heart ailment.

There's nothing wrong with the police in Kirkwood. This guy didn't want to follow the rules and thought the big bad white government had it in for him. He was a slow learner if it took 500 tickets to make him understand you can't park commercial vehicles at your residence.

He went to war and now he's burning in Hades for it. Hope he thinks he's better off in the lake of fire.

[SBONZAI]

R.I.P. COOKIE, THEY BEAT YOU UNTIL YOU STOOD UP, AS A PROUD MAN, HEAD HIGH. EAT WHAT YOU HAVE SOWN. THESE EVIL PEOPLE WILL NO LONGER GRIND YOU DOWN.

[Piece of crap]

Yeah RIP Cookie- you piece of crap. Enjoy hell. And to all the racists, and scumbags defending this piece of human trash, next time let's hope it's you or your mother that gets shot. A Proud Man? Really? More like a cowardly piece of human dirt. He didn't even have the courage to face a court. Rot in hell and I hope your brother dies of cancer.

[KeenObserver]

to the person that said its usually "a white guy who goes crazy"....not true. About 90% of the weekend homicides in KC occur in Eastern Kansas City. If shooting your husband, wife, sister, son isn't crazy then I don't what is.

[Crazy]

Wow, these comments are so contradictory! You call him crazy and a racists yet you people wish ill will on his family and call them disparaging names like the bullies and cowards you no doubt are. Maybe now these racist communities will think twice before they harass tax paying citizens of their respective communities. He shouldn't have killed these people, but I understand how he could have snapped. You white people have no idea of what they probably put him through. You say good riddance to him, I say good riddance to white oppressive police who abuse their powers, good riddance to the council members who no doubt played a role in this mans decision to take this drastic measure! You people don;t have to worry about getting pulled over just because of the color of your skin, you don't have to worry about receiving non-sense citations and giving them your hard earned cash. All these small town redneck townships should take heed and leave people alone or this will continute happen. Karma is a mother...

[CopinKC]

Hey KIRKWOOD VICTIMS, you're a moron. You obviuosly have no sense of right or wrong just like the thug who killed all these inncoent people. Your attempt to justify the killing of 2 Police Officers and 3 other inncocent civilians is sickening. People like you amaze me, you don't even have the intellignce to recognize that what happened is wrong and there is NO way to justify it. If the bonehead thug had simply obeyed the law like the rest of us then he would not have had an issue with the City of Kirkwood. I'm a former Chesterfield Police Officer so I know the St Louis area very well. I have Cop friends all over the St Louis are and I know the Kirwood Police is a high quality municipal Police Department.

Based on Kirkwood Victims' first-hand account of what the police are like in Kirkwood, it sounds like they had it coming.

[Not Surprised]

All cops should take heed- the more and more you harass, the more people are getting fed up.

to SBONZAI who wrote
"Rot in hell and I hope your brother dies of cancer."
in response to the shooter taking the lives of 5 people, your answer makes you sound the same as the perp.

we look at what led to the situation and not just the end result since that's how you begin to find answers instead of conclusions by summarizing your feelings with wishes of violence.

this is why america remains violent. too many close-minded people who pretend that problems don't exist and those that suffer from them can go **** themselves.

what the shooter did is unforgivable and yet, just like the city council did to him, we shut out the perceptions of others we do not agree with until they bubble into something dangerous, and, most frighteningly, come back to haunt us.

[CareBear]

This is a very sad event. How about a little respect for the lives lost and the wounded left to deal with this horrible tragedy.

[Reasonable Person]

If this was a white guy that shot four black people, all you supporters would be singing a different tune. You'd be saying what a racist attack it was, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would be protesting at the courthouse- what a bunch of hateful, racists you are, and you say they had it coming just because they were white.
Disgusting excuses for human beings.

[ME]

Why is it that every time there is any difference in race at all, people always use that as an excuse? There are SO many things caucasians can't do that teh black get away with. Example--BET: Black Entertainment Television, Jet Magazine, etc. If caucasians had those organizations, they'd be sued so fast. It's sad, the state of our world, that people can't take responsibility for their actions, REGARDLESS of the color of their skin.

[Not Surprised]

politicans will see this as nothing more than a reason to up the budget for security in city buildings and halls around the country and to pass tougher restrictions on public attendants who, in their sensistive and over exaggerated opinions, are uncooperative. This will only allow goverment to flex their political muscle and abuse futher.

[Not Surprised]

let's not call out race.

Earlier this week a 15 year old bold killed his parents and brothers.
Yesterday a husband went into the school of his wife where he stabbed her to death in front of her students.
in both examples the offenders were white.

who cares what inept pseudo community figures (i.e. Sharpton, Jackson) have to say in regards to race being an issue about anything. it's a shame that they are considered a voice of reason by America. they only hinder the progress of their people, not promote it.

if you look up the list of the world's most notorious serial killers, you will find the majority of them white.

summation -there is ill in all people. unless the perp here said "kill whitey" instead of "kill the mayor", your racially movitated theories are nothing but a moot point.

[Big Dog]

This is really and unfortunate incident. Nobody expects to go to work and not come home. I realize it can be frustrating when dealing with the courts and municipalities but this definitely went way to far. I work for a large municipality and they can make your life miserable if they want to. It cost them nothing to do it and it cost you a lot of time and money to get straight. You can't get aggressive with people in power because they will be less sympathetic to your issue. This could have been resolved without things getting this tense.

There needs to be some kind of mediation between the citizens and the local government to resolve these issues besides constantly going to court and paying lawyers who keep in mind, are friends or familiar with local government officials.

There is no question that some people with authority will harass you if they don't like and do so within their power and authority. That's why there needs to statistics kept on how authority figures interpret and enforce the local laws. By doing so you can try and weed out the bad apples and or change policies.

[cml]

IMO I don't believe race has anything to do with this. I am an old White guy, but I have been so frustrated and angry with Tax entities and Child Support Court in my distant past---that who knows....

I have personally seen so many people angered to the point of violence and hatred by Star Chamber tactics of some of our Govt. Agencies. State and Federal. Once you get caught in the Vortex...

Its is the lack of logic, the marginalization and criminalization of everyday people that IMO make normal morons like me -- occasionally dangerous.

I pray to live out my declining years without any problems. But make no mistake about it, I am terrified of the Govt., its power, arbitratry, capricious, random and FINAL!

The guy did not go crazy because of his skin color. He just went crazy, and, nothing, but nothing happens in a vacuum.

[KCHawkeye]

If I were the police I would worry about this idiot's brothers. By the sound of their comments, they will be the next to pull the trigger!

[Hushpook]

Sounds like some are condoning the killing of cops & elected officals. Aren't these people known as anarchists?

There is no justification for killing a cop, or an elected official, unless they have put your life in danger. Parking tickets are a far cry from that.

[Donald Trump]

Look, I'm a great judge of people and Charles Thornton was a big fat loser. If he had a real job, he wouldn't have been spending so much time causing a ruckus at City Council meetings where he had no business. The powers that be prevailed and God looked down upon this man and said, "You're fired." I couldn't have said it any better........

[JR]

It is really sad how far some people will go to avoid admitting that they were not right in a particular situation. The murder had been fined repeatedly for violating building codes. I realize that some building code issues can be frustrating to deal with (I’ve dealt with them myself), but the fact of the matter is that they are the laws / regulations to which people in the construction industry must comply. Rather than just comply with the codes like everyone else, the murder decided that he shouldn't have to comply and raised the situation to the point that he harassed and eventually killed police officers and city officials. What would have been so bad about just paying the fine and complying with the codes whether he liked them or not?

I realize that this may be controversial to some people on this site, but the Holy Bible offers much wisdom in this area. People who accept discipline are on the pathway to life, but those who ignore correction will go astray (Proverbs 10:17). Pride leads to disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom (Proverbs 11:2).

I pray that for God’s healing and mercy for the victims’ families, the shooter’s family and for others on this site that have posted such hateful messages.

[Dick Tracy]

"James please track down the idiot who posted that "he definitely understands where the shooter is coming from" and out him to the cops before he kills one of us."

I'm busy right now, but I'll have Liz get somebody on it. You are a fine citizen and I will recommend that you receive a gold star for your outstanding efforts to rid the world of evil doers'.

That's a good one! Yeah let's call the cops on people who make meaningless statements on a meaningless blog that is just here for our perverted entertainment.

[The Police]

Please quit bringing up the race issue. We are intolerant of people of any color. We rule you. We have guns, tasers, toxic gases, batons, handcuffs and if that ain't enough we have radios to call more of us if need be.

[Travis McGee]

"Maybe some vigilante will get a ready available gun and hunt him down."-GetThatThroughYourThickSkull

So you think it's ok for somebody to murder the shooters brother for making callous statements?

You are as crazy as the guy who did this! It is the exact same kind of thinking with the exception that this guy was apparently screwed with almost every day of the week, while you on the other hand want to whack somebody just for speaking in a manner that you do not care for.

Pal you are much sicker and whacked out than the brother. We need to "out" you to the cops.

[mosleuy]

Kirkwood resident... if it's really that bad rent a U-Haul and MOVE!

[mosley]

Race Issue? Come on! A soon as the brother started trying to use "big" words I knew he was black.

[Beavis]

Posted by: Piece of crap

Huh-hu..he called himself a piece of crap..huh-huh. Crap..huh-huh,that's funny.

[jamesbond]

For all those taking pot shots against the gunman and his family on this blog: GO TO HELL! You folks in Kirkwood deserve it! This incident should be a wake up call for all local politicians that constantly abuse their power in order to suit their extreme agenda. You are going to have disgruntle citizens in real life, to take up arms and start shooting at corrupt public officials in office. Aww...Heck, they do that all the time in Iraq for Pete sake!

[sk]

There was nothing about the shootings that should be justified. The man had NO right to kill others. It was all revenge. We live in such a violent society now. It seems like people just use violence nowadays to settle the score.

[TB]

Mr Bond, I can tell you are one stable personality. I will look for your name in upcoming headlines, sicko..

[j]

What a piece of crap. It sounds like his whole inbred family is shit too.

[chown]

Why does carrying a badge make it moral to kill somebody? I'm tired of hearing people label people who kill cops (and people who have the power to discipline police officers, but don't) "evil" while a cop can kill an innocent person without any punishment.

We turn our head while the officer get acquitted for murdering innocent people and then go on a crusade every time a cop gets shot. Stop being hypocritical. It's either okay to kill or its not okay to kill.

And no, I'm not accusing these particular cops of killing innocent people, but pointing out a double standard about moral behavior in our society. If we're going label people "evil" based on the fact that they took a life irregardless of the circumstances, then that label should apply to everyone who kills, whether its a cop, soldier or disgruntled citizen.

Pre-judging Thornton is unfair. You aren't going to prevent future shootings by condemning the killer and ignoring the facts of the issue. For all you know, Thornton had justifiable grievances that should have been addressed long before this event occurred, but you'll never know because you're on your high-horse judging him under your bliss of ignorance.

[j]

It's easy to judge the piece of shit. He did it. He's dead. End of story.

Hopefully they'll feed his body to the dogs.

[Sid Vicious]

Kirkwood councilmen have no agenda. Kirkwood is a mixed community where blacks and whites have lived together quite nicely for 50 years. I used to live about a block away from the City Hall. This guy is a loon who's been causing problems for several years. Why they didn't watch him more closely i'll never know.

He felt he was above the law. He thought since he owned a business he should be given special rights to accomodate him. When it didn't go his way he turned out to be nothing but a killer. He's done the entire black community a disservice. So much for Obama winning the St. Louis vote now.

[Clora Hanna]

I think this is so sad! This happened less than a mile from where I work. We just took the swarm of cop cars as a high-speed chase. We never suspected this...

The attitude of the killer's family is outrageous... CNN cut their interview with his brother short, because one of the anchors couldn't stand his ramblings...

God bless Kirkwood!

[ThePriest]

Dear Mr/Ms chown: As a returned combat officer "from over there", I know what it is like to be in the situation of a firefight. I never wanted to take another persons life, but I have learned the lesson that sometimes you have to take a life to save lives. Because there is real evil that has a demonic preditory animilism to it. I also know what is like to carry a firearm for duty purposes of security in the civilian world. I never met a Marine or Law Enforcement Officer (black or nonblack) that the burden of responisblity of possibly using deadly force didn't weigh heavy on their soul. Every military enlisted or officer is held accountable to the UCMJ, every time a law enforcement officer discharges his/her weapon, they are automatically suspended and investigated by the county prosecutor and independent internal affairs. And every military and law enforcement officer knows that fact. I need to point out that my rank pinned to my collar, or any badge carried did not make me bulletproof in any literal or figurative sense. I say that there is a difference between my walk in the valley of death, which was in service to this blessed nation and to you, and Mr. Thornton murdering authority figures because he didn't think the rule of law applied to him because the color of his skin, and had the sociopathology to blame his victims. Mr. Thornton actions where not in service to anyone but himself. No one else mattered. And I hate to think how many other unarmed (and mostly unpaid) public officals would have had their heads blown off by his .44magium hollowpoints if the brave police officers had not of downed him.
Yes, military and law enforcement do kill when they are out of options, but they do it in selfless service to others, you and me. Murders like Mr. Thornton do it in selfish hate to others, in this case men and women because of their non-black race.

If you want to judge me because of my prone to sunburn skin, green eyes, freckles, and sandy hair AND a combat military officer, if you want to say I am no better than Mr. Thornton, it is your right and your perspective. Thats OK, because I know what your freedom cost, because I paid it, and continue to pay for it with every nightmare, every night.

[noneposted]

I haven't followed everything, but the attitude of the family does seem ridiculous...on the other hand...
Have you ever tried to deal with City Hall lately? Or the school district?
We pay taxes and follow laws and get SCREWED.
I would never advocate violence, but perhaps the government needs to take notice: this will happen more and more if they keep taxing us to death and we no longer have ability to resolve issues reasonably. The death is to our human reason.
My experience has sadly been that money cures all. I have been screwed over by the law and all it takes from me is money. When I don't have money, I get screwed even more.

This killer's actions are not justified, but perhaps we should really understand what this guy went through and possibly consider change, before we brush his vengence off as being "nutcase".

I secretly have had daydreams about running over people who make some of the laws. I wouldn't do it, but for a milli second, it has brought a smile to my face.

[Bob Saget]

Maybe someone should do the same during the next sobriety shakedown.

[Herbert Spencer]

The legal system has become a left wing joke. Like every other institution infested with liberals it has become nothing but a stooge for the state and an instrument of its oppression.

I'm not saying this guy was right, but I do know that when there is no faith in the legal system, vigilante law is liable to rear its head.

[ThePriest]

I repost my post from yesterday, it seems more applicable tonight:

I myself am tired of hearing and reading year after year of violent crimes committed by black males, in most cases black on black attacks. But, not always. You don't have to be a statical genius to figure out they generate a universe of community hurt far out scale for a group that represents a minority of a minority.

Leadership, religous and political (they seem to be the same), points the finger to the nonblack majority, oppression by racial bias, socioeconomics, the (nonblack) courts and police, etc. If the truth be told, if they bothered to look for the enemy, they would find out like Pogo, it was themselves and the segments of the community that they grandstand before.

It seems to me that the real source of the physical violence, comes from violent thinking, and that comes from very deep rooted spiritual issues. It comes from an attitude of hate of the world in general, blacker than thou hate, racial nonblack hate, deception, decandence, substance abuse, belief of special privilage, hate of authority figures that represent the rule of law, coventness, and an attitude that endangers all of the decaloge. This spiritual darkness is not just my observation, the numbers of the acts of wickedness speak unimpeachable witness. If black leadership wants to point fingers, let them point them at the heart of the black community itself, and cry to heaven for repentance and change of attitudes.

I ask the readers to look within, what does you intution tell you, what does it bear witness of this blackness of spirit?

[Elrey Jones]

This is more black on white murder by a racist black african. How many more of us will die at the hands of these filthy racist animals? We non-black people need to march and demand affirmative action from the black on non-black killers or we must divide and segregate. Too many of our non-black brothers and sisters have been killed, maimed, robbed, and looted by these agressive human rights violators. I'd like to take every last nickel from the family and friends of this killer and give to the innocent deceased non-black people.

[SBONZAI]

Official Oppression IS THE TERM. [the posts got mixed.] I, SBONZAI, WROTE THIS- R.I.P. COOKIE, THEY BEAT YOU UNTIL YOU STOOD UP, AS A PROUD MAN, HEAD HIGH. EAT WHAT YOU HAVE SOWN. THESE EVIL PEOPLE WILL NO LONGER GRIND YOU DOWN. MOVE? NO- land of the free- means you have rights. this is more than black/white. it is wealth showing power. i am white, not wealthy. there was an incident in Houston,TX where drunk cops killed a black woman, on the freeway. 5am, She was going to work. they left an after hours cop-bar. my feminist friends said it was a gender issue. i argued that i was in as much danger from these cops as they were.

[Right On Brother]

Elrey Jones is right on! After having my families life shattered by black racists too many times, it is time to march. Screw the consequences. They have already destroyed our world. March for justice and stop the black killers by any means necessary!

[Had Enough]

Right on is right on! How much more killing and desruction can non-black people take from these racist black animals? I say no more! Stop their killing NOW! Look at the black who killed those poor innocent non-black women in Obama's hometown last week. Now this. How about the brutal murders all over America that are happening every minute of everyday? I'll drive with my lights on in protest from now to eternity.

Burn in Hell Thornton.

Burn in Hell.

[Oppose KeenObserver]

To KeenObserver,

Stop your racist use of the word "redneck" and your threatening comments against our non-black brothers and sisters. If you think you racist black monsters can come into non-black communities and kill and rape us then we need to protect ourselves from you racist monsters as God gives us the right to do so. You racist bastards are animals and God gives me the right to protect myself and family from you racist genocidal beasts.

[Oppose KeenObserver]

To KeenObserver,

Stop your racist use of the word "redneck" and your threatening comments against our non-black brothers and sisters. If you think you racist black monsters can come into non-black communities and kill and rape us then we need to protect ourselves from you racist monsters as God gives us the right to do so. You racist bastards are animals and God gives me the right to protect myself and family from you racist genocidal beasts.

Hmmm...

It seams Gerald Thornton might be pushing people to the edge. Apparently from some of the posts on here, it would be okay for someone to go to war on him.

[Sid Vicious]

"Franklin McCallie, longtime former principal at Kirkwood High School, said he spoke often to Thornton several years ago in an effort to resolve his conflict with city hall. He said he considered Thornton a friend but admitted he didn’t understand his disagreement, noting that Kirkwood offered to cancel Thornton’s stack of parking tickets if he’d start obeying the ordinances"

Enough said.

[Rodney King]

"Can't we all just get along?"

[chown]

To ThePriest,

Trigger happy officers shoot down unarmed citizens regularly and the vast majority get away with it. These so-called "investigations" are a joke and nothing more than a slap in the face to the victim's family. The military is no better shown by the utter disregard for human life in Fallujah. Thornton is no worse than these pathetic police officers and soldiers who let their paranoia (and/or prejudice) lead to the death of innocent people.

I don't judge you by how you look, that's ridiculous. You don't you have the right to claim you fought for my freedom. I do not fear the terrorists, they're a sad group of people who have resorted to the worst kinds of desperation. Statistically, terrorists pose almost no threat to me. They aren't trying to occupy the USA and they aren't dropping cluster bombs in my city. Why? Because they're weak and unable to inflict any serious damage on any Western country.

I fear the politicians, the police, the military because when it comes down to it, those will be the people who will oppress me in my lifetime. The level of arrogance is astounding to believe you've done me a favor.

[Ms. K]

Wow I guess we are in the middle of "REDNECK" country! If you back a man in a corner sooner or later he's gonna come out fighting!

You know what, I am SICK of these so-called Kirkwood apologists on this thread. You folks no NOTHING on the context of moral ethics! You allow a government institution to basically bullied this poor black fellow until he decided to take action once for all. And now, you inward bozos in good-old-small town white suburban Missouri wants everyone in this country to give you the typical Hallmark sympathy card. Well F&$^ you deranged hicks! Kirkwood got their best desserts yesterday! Too bad that the gunman was wounded instead by the cop; otherwise, he should had gotten a Congressional Metal of Honor instead.

[Joe Smith]

Black racist animals are the terrorists. Obama is a terrorist. Look at that racist mulattoes church Trinity Church of Christ. Non-blacks need to rise and march. If the black animals have the green light to kill, rape, rob, loot, and oppress us then segregate from them and tell those racist black animals to get out of America. We don't need their terroristic behaviour here. They are killing hundreds of thousands of us since the closet racist MLK marched on the scene and they're given the green light. The black racist monsters, their white girly supporters, and their racist leaders are terrorists.

[Joe Smith]

Black racist animals are the terrorists. Obama is a terrorist. Look at that racist mulattoes church Trinity Church of Christ. Non-blacks need to rise and march. If the black animals have the green light to kill, rape, rob, loot, and oppress us then segregate from them and tell those racist black animals to get out of America. We don't need their terroristic behaviour here. They are killing hundreds of thousands of us since the closet racist MLK marched on the scene and they're given the green light. The black racist monsters, their white girly supporters, and their racist leaders are terrorists.

[cml]

If Kirkwood did offer to cancel the fines if he would start following the law, then he is just crazy. I did not mean to offend anyone, I have had pretty negative experiences with the Govt. Not including my military stint in the 60s.

I still don't think, based on what I have read, that it has much at all to do with race, but thats just me.

Yeah, he was just a crazy bastard, just like his brother. This is a good example of why cousins shouldn't marry.

[jb]

Cookie always had this strange sense of entitlement. For some reason, he didn't think that ordinary laws should apply to him. The council tried on numerous occasions to work it out, but he just had such a temper, that he could not listen. I guess in the end, it was his own blindness that was his undoing.

[Malcolm]

Sounds like these city councils need to start listening to their tax paying citizens.

[Mike]

I agree the police get over aggressive and treat most of us with little or no respect. I agree that Cities use traffic ticket to enhance their revenue. I agree that City Hall does not serve the people but ususally special interest. I agree our entire system needs review and some changes. What I have a real problem with is saying he went to war by shooting unarmed people. None of the actions can be justified but shooting people can rarely be justified and this action against unarmed people is one of those unjustified acts under any circumstance.

[Malcolm]

Oh it's justified.

Yeah, I'm sure he had good reason for shooting the reporter.

What a piece of shit.

[fyi]

Clora Hanna,

Well said and thank you for your service!

[Tom K]

Once in a while a city could simply decide to do the decent thing and overlook that "three feet off the mark" kind of thing, and even volunteer to make it official. It could make the effort to decide to tolerate what an oddball wants instead of using its "code enforcement" people as weapons and instead of continually harassing someone. Sometimes a person has to move over even if he is right.

It's too bad it takes something like this for the idea to come out. Authority takes itself and its ideas far too seriously. It exerts deadly pressure against people in order to get its way. You don't know when someone is going to lash out or get obsessive like this. There is a reason for a violent backlash and it is because cities rule by violence, threat of violence, and a very high and unnecessary level of intolerance.

Okay, so THAT's why he shot the reporter. Thanks for clearing that up tommy.

[Tom K]

No, that's why he lost it. This isn't about anything rational, this is about how society treats people who are a bit peculiar or different. Some things aren't important enough to be so rough about. I don't even think that the shooter in this case knew what he was getting into, what was going to happen with him. If the law is so great, why don't the humans who enforce it learn how to defuse instead of how to aggravate people? I've had a run-in with a "code enforcement" person and had to tell his boss on him. He was determined to get as much rage out of me as he could, determined to make me feel angry and helpless. Instead he got a talking to from his boss. That type hurts worse from something like that than from being beaten.

Don't want to treat people like human beings, want to use situations like this as an excuse to make things worse, I have no use for you.

It's too bad some people can't control themselves tommy.

well said "kirkwood victim" -

[SANE PERSON]

I hope he and his brother and all the other trash defending him rot in hell.

[Tom K]

Hey, if Thornton had gone in there and punched one of them in the face, the shooting would never have happened. So much for "self control." Sometimes you have to know when to let go of control. Throw a fit somewhere, sometime, somehow, instead of letting it build.

It seems he was too much of a coward to do that.

If he had driven his truck through city hall, people probably would have listened to his grievances. As it is now, he has just become another stereotypical crazy man who cared about nothing but himself. By his own actions, he has proven that they were right to try and ban him from the council meetings.

[Tom K]

I'm pointing out the fact that various officials try to stir up crazy people. Maybe the side that wants to pretend to be the rational and mature side on a particular day might want to stop shoving people around.

On the other hand, had Thornton found better ways to push back we wouldn't be having this discussion. Punching someone out isn't the best way either, but the police get to do it and get away with it, with official sanction even when they are dead wrong, and the harm done is usually minimal. It's also very difficult to kill someone who you aren't punching. Just saying, but don't hold it in like that.

"It's also very difficult to kill someone who you aren't punching." ?

[F da Police]

Police Departments should be next, dirty pigs need a wake-up call!

You go ahead mr F da.

Big man.

LOL.

[Tom K]

Easy to accidentally shoot someone you don't want to shoot, hard to punch someone who you aren't actually aiming your fist at. Get it?

[Good riddance]

Ice-T said it best....

Judging from all the crazies posting on here, it's no wonder that police have a tendancy to shoot first.

[Tom K]

The police tendency to shoot first drives people crazy.

I think these people were already crazy.

I agree. I think there's a certain percent of the population that looks for a cause to go crazy. It's the same as the Muslims blowing up women and children because of their "religion" and the Kenyans hacking each other to death because of politics.

[kbm]

And cops setting up shakedown checkpoints because too lazy to do real police work, and easy pickings leeching off of average joe.

Yeah, that's another good reason to shoot a reporter.

This is why non-blacks must live separate from blacks. Blacks oppress and exterminate. Non-blacks have a duty and obligation to their human freedoms. With the massive black on non-black oppression, terrorism, and racism, who amongst the non-black leaders will march with us for our civil and human rights? I drive with my lights on and will do so forever to give light to the massive crime that black people commit against other non-black people. And to think there are people willing to vote for the Obama racist is unbelievable since he belongs to a afroracist church that is brotherly towards the racist Nation of Islamic hate Louis Farrakhan.

See, there's crazy people on all sides of the issue. Just looking for a reason to let it out.

[Tom K]

Parasites think that they can keep doing it forever. Then they make it too difficult for the average citizen to get justice legally. The United States was actually founded on the idea that citizens could keep weapons for the purpose of overthrowing a corrupt government. Then the government outlawed violent overthrow of government, selling the idea that we have a governing system that will never need to be overthrown.

That's bait and switch.

"Then the government outlawed violent overthrow of government"

Oh, I guess I didn't realize that used to be legal.

LOL.

[Tom K]

A lot of things that you didn't realize, LOL. Willful ignorance is pretty useful to you, isn't it? I wish that I were capable of willful stupidity.

Believe my friend, you are more than capable.

LOL.

Previous poster, by "metal of honor" you must mean the "needle" in a lethal injection? Funny how insanity and plea bargains, things we use to help murderers like this sick **** in our justice system, would be of little assistance given how his family is running around shooting their mouths off about how he planned it.

Defeating bullies takes patience and smart halfway-logical thinking. If you don't have or can't think to use these faculties then move to another country where taking the law into your own hands with excessive force on other citizens makes you the President. At some point everyone gets bullied by even their own family and friends. Where does the line for decency get drawn?

We're a flawed country, yes, we put money on human life with respect to negligence and our legal system. Even so, the lives of five to six people were worth far more than what the gunman stole from them. In that sense, the gunman had less decency than a corporation that funds construction of a public bridge that it knows might well collapse within the next decade, killing a dozen or more people. At least the rest of us who don't "lose it" do put more value than "so many thousand dollars of tickets'-worth" on a half-dozen people's lives. In the end the gunman was a petty thief. Instead of "administering justice" he stole. Plain and simple.

Even stupid rural hicks have more sense than to take additional legal action without their lawyer's knowledge. This also the gunman did, causing his lawyer to ditch him. No patience. No halfway-logical thinking.

Stupid rural hicks have phone books to find out where individuals who bully them live and work. I guess the guy was too lazy to even consider talking to these persons "in person" under any pretext, in their offices, buying them coffee, etc.

Stupid rural hicks also do not kill cops in cold blood unless the cops have violated cornerstone community values. Everyone comes in this thread trying to smear these Kirkwood cops with "crooked" this or "rotten" that. But when have they committed a veritable assault on the particular person? When have they really treated one person any differently than the next, with the exception of the heroic act of putting down the gunman like a dog.

"Eyes on the prize." Bull****. Now he's dead and his family shoots their mouths off at the press to get attention, just like him.

Think about common decency and why we have it. Just think about it.

I'm curious, what year was the Anti Violent Overthrow of Government Law passed?

Probably became case law by 1812.

[Education...not for all]

The ignorance of our own government is really sad... yet these are the people who do it for the children. Ignorant lemmings.

I remember being taught that the U.S. federal government was sold to the people largely on the basis that the government itself would protect the right of the people to overthrow it by force when in the course of events the people decided that it was necessary. Then at some point the government outlawed advocating violent overthrow of the government. They may have used wartime as an excuse, but the Alien and Sedition laws were never repealed, either. As we have learned the hard way a war can always be launched just when civil rights movements need to be quashed. This is how they slide in things that people would normally reject for good reason. A war, just as in Orwell's 1984, is used as an excuse to suspend or entirely get rid of activities that the government doesn't like.