Should college students be allowed to conceal-carry on campus?

Stateline has a report here on the movement to allow concealed-carry permits on college campuses -- one of the side effects of last year's Virginia Tech massacre. Utah is the only state that protects that right. About 16 others explicitly ban it, and the rest let the school decide. (The schools almost always rule against concealed-carry, Stateline reports.)

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus got several states to consider bills this year, but most of them have sputtered out, the article notes.

Supporters say that college students, if they can meet the standards of the concealed-carry permit, should have the right. They argue that more armed students means fewer (or less severe) cases like NIU and VA Tech. Opponents say they'd only make school shootings bloodier -- and tougher for police to figure out who's the good guy and who's the bad guy.

Here's a recent Newsweek piece about the issue.
A Brady Campaign piece arguing against guns in schools.
An NRA piece on how school shootings can be prevented -- one of the recommendations is armed teachers.

Comments

[G]

This is a frickin' FABULOUS idea.

Let's arm heavy drinking, hormone infused, over worked, underprepared, young adults.

Let's honor the memories of those killed by making the next school shooting MUCH easier and quicker.

Most college kids are still learning how to deal with everything that life is throwing at them, including how to deal with hurt, anger and rejection. Often times they don't handle it very well....i've seen ridiculous fits of outrage from drunk college kids who just haven't matured yet.

And our plan is to ARM these people????

Brilliant.

WE NEED MORE GUNS!

[Old Friend]

If we are going to listen to these boobs when the protest social, economical, and political issues they know nothing about, I have no problem arming them. With armed students, maybe the next school shooting will not take out 36 only 1 or 2.

[You're a Mean Drunk R2D2™]

G... It's not the gunmen that carry a legal concealed carry permit that scare people. It's the ones that go out, buy a handgun and then terrorize others by shooting as many as they can. And you have to keep in mind that many students out there are lazy and wouldn't go through the process to even purchase a gun, much less get a concealed carry permit.

I say let them and the teachers carry a weapon if they so choose. That way, if a class of 100 students has 1 or 2 (possibly a couple more) with a concealed weapon permit and a handgun, they could stop the shooter quickly in a situation like the VT tragedy.

[G]

Massacres like V-Tech are rare. They are the exception, not the rule. The chances of finding yourself in a situation like that are extremely remote.

So is it wise to arm hundreds of kids, to make guns that much more common, to increase the likelihood of accidental shootings, or stolen guns falling into the wrong hands, just to address the remote possibility of another school massacre?

Why does every single school, when left to their own devices, decide unanimously to ban hand guns on campus?

Dorm rooms loaded with drunken kids, all with loaded hand guns under their pillows, just sounds like a really, really, really bad idea.

How many deaths between now and the next incident are we willing to trade, to MAYBE save a few people when it finally happens?

[Big Dog]

I'm not so sure that this a good idea. I think arming a bunch of paranoid students with handguns is going to create more problems than it solves. Keep in mind that are a lot pranks taking place on college campuses, with some involuntary participants. Can you imagine someone getting shot because some student wants to be a hero?

Intimate partner violence is also a problem on campus. You don't want young people under a lot of pressure, having a difficult time sorting out their problems with access a gun.

[Kevin]

I wish these people would stop complaining about concealed carry. These same people said that once the law was approved it would make Kansas City streets like the old west with vigilantes and people shooting people over road rage situations. Instead I see more problems with the criminals with guns running the streets killing and carjacking and robbing then I do the average law abiding citizen that carrys a gun like me.

I think more of us have them in school and the workplace and at the mall.

[Big Dog]

Kevin, I'm for gun rights but I don't think that arming kids is the way to handle school shootings. This isn't the same as living in general population. Schools try to create a safe learning enviroment without being restrictive. Just like carrying concealed weapons didn't solve crime, allowing handguns on campus want prevent this from happening again, it just adds more planning to the attack with a definite suicide.

[blarneology]

I say let them carry if they want. This is a local government issue and not anyone elses business. The rest of us should mind our own business and leave others alone, enough with telling others how to live.

[Brian]

What if the First Amendment were banned on college campuses, sports arenas, churches (let's not go there!), bars, banks, child care facilities, hospitals, and casinos like the Second Amendment is? Would you support Students for Free Speech on Campus? What if the Fourth Amendment were banned in those places? Would you support Students Against Illegal Search and Seizure?

Allowing concealed carry on a college campus isn't "arming students" just as allowing people to have driver's licenses isn't giving them cars. Folks would still have to go through all the normal legal channels to acquire and carry a handgun, which in most states, are not cheap or any sort or rubber stamp procedure. In Michigan you have to take a long class including heavy legal lecture and explanation by an attorney or LEO, pass a written and shooting test, and get fingerprinted, all of which costs a few hundred dollars and takes quite bit of time. It's not as though you can walk to into the drug store, drop a 10 spot on the counter, and walk out with a gun in your waistband.

[Shawn]

No one is calling for the arming of college kids. We are only stating that those who are of legal age (21) and have a valid permit issued by the state, be allowed to carry on college campuses just like they would be able to carry almost any where else. Why is it that I am legal to carry in my University Parking Lot but not in a University building? Currently in Kansas it is not against the law to have a gun on any college campus. The law only states that colleges have the right to post their buildings.

Please quit framing this argument in terms of how it makes you feel, and frame it in terms of actual facts. I have a permit to carry in Kansas. This means I am a law abiding citizen, never been arrested, no history of physical or mental abuse, no drug problem/history, no mental illness and have passed a shooting proficiency test. I should be your best friend, not a person you are scared of. I carry because it is my God given right, protected by the US Constitution and I choose to defend myself and not be a victim. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

Think about what makes you safe, not what makes you "feel" safe.

[Phil]

Keep in mind, incoming freshmen are not eligable for the concealed carry. A student or not, the legal age is still 21 for handguns. That means the student will at least be a junior or senior.

[G]

God didn't give you the right to carry a gun, Shawn....but the US constitution certainly did, so your argument is completely valid.

I fear and distrust ANYONE with a gun, no matter how special you think it makes you to be armed.

[Sasquach]

The 4th amendment doesn't apply to many students who live in campus housing. Quite often the students are required to sign off that representatives of the school may enter your dorm or campus apartment at any time for any reason without warning. The same can be said for the ownership of firearms in student housing. These aren't laws, they are contractual agreements. Essentially, you are relinquishing certain rights in order to receive housing from the school. If you're planning on going to college and living on campus make sure you take a good look at the school housing contracts.

[Brian]

Thanks, Sasquach. I thought about the 4th Amendment being a poor example after I posted, for the same reason you mentioned. School housing contracts generally do make you give up your rights regarding search of the premises. I stand by my freedom of speech analogy though.

G, most of my closest friends are permit holders. They are some of the finest people you could ever meet. Unless you were close friends with them, you'd never know they were carrying a gun as they went about their daily business. We're not all para-military militia types wearing camouflage pants and tactical vests. I do have my suit pants tailored 2" larger though, to accommodate my holster.

[Shawn]

G, why would you fear me simply because I have an inanimate object on my hip?

Trust me G, I don't feel special being armed, in fact I am much more cautious and polite when I am armed. When armed I understand that I cannot do anything that provokes a fight and that my first and only duty is to avoid a situation where ever possible, and in the case where it isn't, I have the tool needed to defend myself. The gun doesn't make me tough, it doesn't make me right it doesn't me feel secure, but what it does is gives me a force equalizer in the case that I ever need to protect myself or my family or a complete stranger.

[blarneology]

Brian, I never had to sign an agreement when living in campus housing and was free to have firearms in my residence with never a problem.

It's funny how people like to pick and choose which rights they think people should have. I say take away some of their rights such as freedom of speech, and privacy and see how they like it. Most likely they will whine. This is such a sad mentality produced from things like indoctrination at public schools. Liberals believe in freedom as long as they agree with it.

[You're a Mean Drunk R2D2™]

Ok... so it's fine for a 18 year old, fresh out of high school to join the military, and to shoot a M4a1 or other assault/sniper rifle, but a 21 year old who has gone through proper channels to secure one to protect themselves cannot because they may get drunk on a school campus?

Generally those who can and receive a carry permit aren't out of control drunkards.

[G]

If true, that's great Shawn. I believe you are sincere.

But you have an awful lot more faith in other people than I do if you think you are the rule, and not the exception.

[blarneology]

G, how many people do you know that conceal carry legally?

[Wester]

This is an interesting proposal. Lets let people that are in classes carry loaded guns because someone MIGHT come on campus and start shooting. I am sure that we will change our minds when one of these people gets pissed and start killing others, why not, I already a loaded gun. With this mind set lets let airplane passengers carry weapons because someone MIGHT want to harm them as well. We can have a real good shoot out in the classrooms as well as 35000 feet up. Not a good idea.

[STL]

Are campuses currently able to guarantee the safety of their students attending classes? NO, they certainly are not. So, students and faculty who wish to not be the next campus shooting victims must think ahead and be prepared to respond to the wacko student on psychotropic drugs ready to rampage. This is the reality of campus life today and we should only be alarmed if the next mad shooter is left to kill at will without an appropriate equivalent level of response!

[blarneology]

Wester, think of it this way. If people were able to carry firearms on place we would still have a thing called the world trade center and 3000 more citizens in this country.

That was an excellent example.

[blarneology]

G, how many people do you know that carry legally?

[KenK]

Only crazed maniacs should be allowed to have guns on campus, like the cops for instance.

[G]

I know a handful who have filed for the permits, but I don't know how many of them are actually carrying on a regular basis.

[blarneology]

So then your opinion on trusting people is purely emotional and not based on anything factual, when it comes to people legally carrying firearms.

[Tam]

It's not as though you can walk to into the drug store, drop a 10 spot on the counter, and walk out with a gun in your waistband.

Posted by: Brian | Thursday, April 17, 2008 at 09:41 AM

You are right there...

Only criminals can do that.

[dawg]

I think it's fine if it's KU students with guns, but I would PROHIBIT MU students without reservation.

[Brenda Spencer]

Students or other adults have a right to defend themselves. If the college accepts the responsibility for providing students with security while on campus, then by all means restrict arms there. The track record for providing for student safety is poor and providing redress for their failure poorer. As long as administrators will not accept responsibility for security failures, students have to provide for their own safety. It is sickening that colleges are being turned into hunting grounds by removing people's ability to legally defend themselves, while 'campus police' hide behind trees until the shooting stops.

The control freaks who fear others having guns have been shrill in their predictions of the return of the wild west every time concealed carry laws are passed. None of it has come to pass. The idea that free access to weapons will result in daily shootouts everywhere is just stupid. The opposite it true. Actually, I have found that people are very polite to each other when everyone in the group is heavily armed.
More guns means less crime. The only people who have to fear an armed populace are government employees and other criminals.

[Elrond of Rivendell]

Methinks "G" is afraid of wht HE might do if he had a gun in his hands, and he thinks everybody will behave that way.

And no, the Constitution DID NOT give anyone the right to keep and bear arms. It only specified that the Government cannot infringe on that basic pre-existing individual right.

Waaaay too many people get that wrong.

[Shawn]

G, Thank you for the kind words. I do think I am the rule however based upon the people I know who also have CCW permits and the studies I have seen regarding crimes committed by the general public and crimes committed by people with CCW permits. According to my CCW instructor who also happens to be an instructor(a police officer) who works with the KCPD and ST. Joe Police depts, CCW permit holders are 5 times less likely to commit a crime then are other citizens. I know for a fact, people who have CCW permits love their guns and often own multiple guns for hunting or collecting. These people know that doing anything even remotely stupid or criminal with their gun will lead them to losing their permits and quite possibly the right to own a gun. The reason these people fear this and thus commit fewer crimes is that they are law abiding citizens. That is why they have the permit in the first place and are not just carrying a gun without it. These are people like me who work at a local University where I daily abide by the posted rules and disarm myself before stepping foot on campus. We love life, we love freedom and we respect the Police, but we understand the limitations of the police. On average there is 1 cop per 500 citizens in most towns/cities. Police can't be everywhere and until they can arrive, I would like to be able to defend myself. All I ask is that since I can do this in almost every other area of my life, why not where I work?

[Shawn]

Elrond of Rivendell, you are right. According to the US Declaration of Independence, we are endowed by our creator (in my case God) with unalienable rights. Those rights were then enshrined in in the US Constitution in the Bill of Rights. These are not rights granted to us by our Government, but instead these are rights that our Government expressly cannot take from us because they where rights before our government came along. You are correct, many people simply don't understand this.

[blarneology]

Shawn and elrond get it. Too bad so many don't.

Like I said how about you folks so dead set against it put up your addresses so I can come over and decide what rights you should or shouldn't have. I bet your attitude changes when it's dealing with you.

[Elrond of Rivendell]

Well stated Shawn.

I agree. Your behavior is what I perceive to be the rule, not the exception, for not only CCW holders, but MOST law-abiding gun owners. I shoot a lot of competitive clay targets and teach hunter education in Kansas, and am therefore around a lot of gun owners in my free time.

They are the kind of people you WANT to be your next-door neighbor.

[blarneology]

elrond and shawn, I cannot think of one time I have been around a legal gun owner who has acted like a moron with their weapon. Either carrying in public, car or out in the field. It just doesn't happen and all this stuff you hear from people is just stuff they have heard from others.

It's the old friend of a friend who's sisters boyfriend's cousins aunt said something. It's a ridiculous argument that has no logic nor is it even believable if one is even slightly up to date on this topic. It's a shame that people are too lazy to research, or just make stuff up during a discussion.

[Steve]

I am a college student. I also have a carry permit. I do not drink armed or unarmed. I am 45 years old and studying for a Masters Degree. I have maintained a clean police record for 45 years.

You will never know that I am armed. I did not pay for the liscense to carry a weapon concealed to flash it around to impress or intimidate people. The only time that weapon will see the light of day is when God forbid my life, or the life of someone I love (maybe even you) is treatened with extinction.

People who go through the process to ge a carry permit are not the people you need to fear. Those people abide by the law.

It is the suicidal maniac angry with the world who wants his fifteen minutes of fame at the expense of others lives that we must deal with. And the only way to deal with such a person is to lethally send him on his way as quickly as we can, plain and simple.

Gun free zones on campus only make them inviting targets full of helpless victims for the next nutjob who wants to vent his rage. Gun bans only fool you into feeling safe. History has proven that feeling safe and being safe are two entirely different things.

[OIFVetx3]

You forget these are many of the same kids who voluntarily defend our rights and freedoms. I am 23 yrs old and have spent 3 years in Iraq with the military and as a civilian. They can defend America but they cannot defend themselves?

This is a rare event in America but defenitly not rare for most other parts of the world. Please morn for the victims but remember the same 'kids' you bad mouth G are the same ones who have give you the right to do so.

[Shawn]

Steve, You are the type of student that we need more of on campus.

OIFvetx3, Thank you for your service to my and this great county.

Just for the record, I am enrolled in a full day of combat handgun training in two weeks to continue my civilian training so that I am skilled and able to use my CCW properly if the event ever arises. I hope the arguments made today by our side will help G and others like him/her find us law abiding CCW permit holders less threatening and more of an asset in daily life.

[blarneology]

Have any of you guys been to thunder ranch?

Shawn if you ever get the chance take a trip there.

[Elrond of Rivendell]

And here's another tidbit to ponder.

It hasn't been until "relatively" recently that guns have been prohibited from schools and college campuses.

Yet mass murders of the type at Columbine and Virginia Tech are a relatively recent phenomenon (the one at UT-Austin notwithstanding.)

[Shawn]

Just to put the issue into perspective, I would also like to see staff and teachers at K-12 who have passed background checks and proper permit processes be able to ccw if they wish as well. I do not believe it should be mandatory at all.

Here is a list of school shootings, and the number of dead because CCW wasn't even an option
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

Each of those schools were "Gun Free Zones"

Here are schools where people were able to get their guns and stop mass murder before the cops could get there

Appalachian School of Law shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

Pearl Mississippi
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OthWr/principal&gun.htm

More could be done if CCW was allowed.

[OIFVetx3]

great links Shawn, and thank you Sir.

I wouldn't mind if college students with concealed carry permits were able to take their weapons onto campus.

I'm one of those folks whose life was saved by a responsible person who whipped out a gun and killed my assailant. Others like me probably also lack a needless fear of guns.

I saw a cartoon picture the other day. It was man standing outside his house looking over to his neighbors house, with a large caption above his head that stated something like this (I promise from this day forward that I will respect my neighbors right to be a home free of guns. So, from this day forward I promise not to use my gun when your are being attacked) !

You probably had to have seen it to appreciate it. :)

[Shawn]

To the last poster, would you be interested in sharing your story with us? I don't need names, dates or anything personal.

Thank you in advance.

[in2ropin]

Sorry, I'm the 4:18 post. Used to put my name automatically, now for some reason it quit.:(

[smog]

Once again I am in awe.
SHOULD GUNS BE ALLOWED ON COLLEGE CAMPSUS?
There is only two ways guns should be allowed on campus. The first would be if you have a permit to legally carry a firearm and the other would be if you issue everyone a firearm so the field is leveled. This way all the drunken hormone enraged teens and near teens would would be equal.
What kind of question is this?????

[jayhawkdp]

G was right on one thing.

VT was an exception. But we as a nation are hell bent on making rules on exceptions not on the norms.

Why do we "lock-down" a school during a shooting? To keep kids in the building, because one school shooting a guy waited outside and killed the kids as they ran out.

At VT, more lives would have been lost except a Holocaust surviver professor held the door closed while the kids got out and lost his life in the process.

There have been a couple school shootings that have been stopped when a concealed carry armed person shot the shooter.

VT is the only school in VA that doesn't allow concealed carry. And they were bragging about it before the massacre.

[James]

Concealed carry permits are only available to adults over the age of 21, who have no recreational drug or alcohol convictions. They pass a rigorous FBI background check. Nationwide private individuals with concealed carry permits have a better safety record than police and private investigators who are allowed to carry a weapon on campus under the law as it is now, right past those "no gun signs" that really mean, "UNARMED VICTIM ZONE, ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK" and have always been seen as a "welcome mat" by the insane "active shooter." [The name the police have assigned to school mass killers]

[Ben Miner]

Ok let's see... a person who has applied for and received a concealed carry permit can carry pretty much everywhere else, but the second they step onto campus they become a criminal. Does that make any sense? Is a college campus somehow a magical "gun free" zone where no criminal would dare bring a gun because it's against the rules? History has proven that as a solid NO. When you disarm victims, you only embolden those who seek to harm them.

[Shifty]

Wow! A logical well presented forum here. The only thing that I add is that even though campus shootings are somewhat rare, how many lives taken, and how many people wounded, are "acceptable" per incident? Not acceptable if it is my kid even if he or she is the only person shot.

Campuses are not "off limits" to firearms. I remember in the late 70's when I was in high school in JOCO our district police officer was unarmed during the day, even though he was sworn. A couple of years later, he was fired. Why? Because there was a report of a student with a firearm, and the officer went to his car (where he kept his issued duty belt) and armed himself before locating the student. Since it was against policy to carry during the day he was dismissed. Stupid logic, even in those days...

[blarneology]

what it boils down to is that the anti gun people are arguing with emotion and not logic. They have nothing to backup any of their claims and will continue to throw out all sorts of horror stories hoping people will believe it. when it comes to facts they are simply shooting blanks.

[Thatguy]

For those of you who are so opposed to concealed carry, if you're ever getting shot at by a mad man please make sure and point out you don't want me to save your life with my evil gun.

[Shawn]

G, I hope that we have been able to change your mind with regards to CCW on college campus. If not, I hope that we were able to at least lesson the amount of fear you have about us law abiding CCW permit holders and our guns.

Have a nice weekend and thank you for the pleasant debate.

[Walker]

G, any person who is reckless enough to commit a criminal action (drinking while carrying) is not going to stop for a metal sign. Let's look at this logically. States that have concealed-carry laws estimate about 1% of the population has a permit. Let's say half of a student body is old enough (21+) to buy a handgun. That leaves half-a-percent of college students in possession of firearms. Half-a-percent is one in 200. That's hardly "a gun under every pillow." This law wouldn't flood schools with guns, it would simply extend the right these people currently practice everywhere else in town to the campus. You should also consider the fact that these school policies apply to faculty and staff as well. Or are faculty too drunk, hormone-infused, and over-worked to be trusted as well?

Also, concealed-carry holders commit crimes at a far lower rate than the general populace.

In my state (NC), 244 people have been arrested for carrying a concealed handgun on a state college campus in the last year. None were legal CCW holders. By carrying concealed in the first place they were breaking the law and the metal sign on campus didn't stop them. Incidents like VT and NIU may be an exception, but people illegally carrying firearms onto college campuses is all too common.