The worm turns

At the top of CNN's site? "Appeals court rules Texas had no right to seize hundreds of children from polygamous sect."

From the Austin-American Statesman:

The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services failed to prove that children at the YFZ Ranch were in danger and needed to be removed from their homes, the 3rd Texas Court of Appeals ruled.

In addition, the appellate court ruled that District Judge Barbara Walther abused her discretion by failing to return the children after three days of hearings last month.

“Even if one views the FLDS belief system as creating a danger of sexual abuse by grooming boys to be perpetrators of sexual abuse and raising girls to be victims of sexual abuse as the department contends, there is no evidence that this danger is ‘immediate’ or ‘urgent,’ as contemplated” by state law, the court opinion states.

Comments

[The_Golfer]

And who did not see this coming?

[James Hart]

I'll go out on a limb and say Texas CPS.

[blarneology]

DANG! I am tired of being right.

I am lauging too hard at this.

Where are all the people who "KNEW" there was child abuse going on?

It's interesting. The appellate court said there weren't grounds to remove the children. Yet the appellate court didn't order the children to be returned to the compound. I wonder if, by law, they technically had to rule (supposedly) yet they are also weary that child abuse may be going on the compound. Otherwise, isn't is standard procedure to order the children to be immediately returned to their home. The other question is - they have 100 children who they don't know who their mothers are - where do they go?

[Rooster]

FLDS chicks is hot, damn I sure wood like to get some of that action. Do these chicks beleive the part in the bible where it says to honor and obey. Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet. Hell, I'll sign up for about a dozen.

[kay]

So taxpayers paid $7.5 million - for what?

[blarneology]

Kay, they paid to see that our government likes to impose on the citizens instead of support and serve the citizens. The court ruling shows we are citizens though and not subjects which is a very good thing.

Now CPS just needs to put the children they never should have taken back where they belong...HOME

[ReggaeRambler]

Man.....if you thinks FLDS women are hoT then you need to check out some Amish porn

[Dan]

The court didn't rule there was not threat of harm, only "immediate harm." In other words, this abuse could not happen for a year or two so the children should be returned until a hearing on the matter.

If there is any abuse going on, then the children are in danger of immediate harm. I think they messed this one up.

[blarneology]

What the court ruled was that the gub'met was full of $hit. There is no proof of abuse period. Nothing about immediate just no proof of harm AT ALL.

Here is part of the ruling:
"The existence of the FLDS belief system as described by the department's witnesses, by itself, does not put children of FLDS parents in physical danger," the three-judge panel said.

The state's Department of Family and Protective Services "did not present any evidence of danger to the physical health or safety of any male children or any female children who had not reached puberty," the judges ruled. "

[please sign your comments]

If you want to know the inside story of the polygamous cult lead by Warren Jeffs (who live at the YFZ Ranch in TX and in Colorado City, AZ.), check out the recent documentary BANKING ON HEAVEN. http://www.bankingonheaven.com

[Makro]

Big law firms are circling over the CPS and the high school dropouts that staff it.
(in NY, I know their education is as such and I guess the same for Texas)
But the law firms are after the Texas surplus. The doubling of real estate taxes and gas prices is good for Texas income. So they let them make mistakes. Remember MARCI A. HAMILTON, a Yeshiva University School of Law professor? “The Rescue of Children from the FLDS” CPS relied on her and believed her, but she set them up.

[True American]

Rooster, the bible says to submit one to another. THEN it says wives submit to your husbands, and husbands lay down your lives for your wives. Somehow, I doubt these pervs are laying down their lives for anyone.

[George]

The most embarrassing moment for CPS was when their representative was asked in court to explain how they determined that the 14 year old was pregnant. The answer was “she refused a pelvic exam” apparently, the whores could only explain the refusal as admittance of guilt. The girl turns out to be a virgin.

[kcdude]

DANG! I am tired of being right.

I am lauging too hard at this.

Where are all the people who "KNEW" there was child abuse going on?

__________________________________________

Blarneology, they will now criticize the very government entity they praised not too long ago as being corrupt or incompetent.

What irony, eh? Weren't we claiming the same thing a few weeks ago? Did we not say that the people accepting this type of behavior by the government would be the first to complain when it didn't meet their agendas?

I would wait for their admissions of being wrong and apologies, but I don't have time to wait for the next Blue Moon!!

[kay]

So what did the feds really want? I know that the CPS people get themselves all ramped up about protecting kids as if they were feeling the spirit at a tent revival, but what were the feds using this as a cover to find?

[Kevin]

I dont people should hide behind their religion to commit illegal acts. It's just plan wrong to brainwash people to partcipate in these cults. However two wrongs don't make a right. The authorities used a 911 call without verifying where and who the came came from to get a search warrant and then just started removing kids who mostly did not have signs of abuse. Although with kids I think you should error on the side of caution, in this case I agree with the court that immediate removal of the kids was not necessarily.

[blarneology]

hmmm so the final story is if there actually was child abuse going on they would have ruled on the side of CPS/FBI. Since they didn't that means there isn't child abuse going on or there is no proof of it which basically goes back to none going on.

Kay, you know what they were trying to find. Sounds like you are a little disappointed that the government wasn't allowed to violate the FLDS citizens rights. Or am I just misreading your comment?

[blarneology]

kcdude, you are right. I just find it funny how people said that anyone who disagrees with what the state/fbi did must also be child abusers, support child abusers or are just plain stupid.

Now that myself and anyone who disagreed with those actions had those kinds of charges leveled at us appear to be right the most vocal disappear. At least I would be man enough to admit I was wrong.

[T REX]

Kevin, err on the side of caution is a two way street. We should be just as diligent to err on the side of innocent until proven guilty as we are to try to protect children from abuse.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cps+abuse&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8

[blarneology]

Kevin, your posts hints at these people doing something wrong. There is no proof of them doing anything wrong so you are just assuming this on what grounds?

[T REX]

By the way Kevin, I didn't mean that as a slam, only adding to what you were saying.

[blarneology]

TRex, you are right we should be that diligent. We as people are allowed to judge people but this in no way carries over to our government. They are not to be judgemental or making decisions off the cuff, they are supposed to uphold the law and we are in serious trouble when they don't.

[Realist]

So they didn't have any right to take the kids, but they don't have to give them back? What kind of BS is that?

The mystery to me is why anyone has any respect for the so-called "justice" system these days. I know you sometimes have to pretend to respect it to keep some Nazi from throwing you in jail, but anything more than lip service is just stupid.

[in2ropin]

Well since I just read this news, I guess I can say (FINALLY)!

I knew somewhere, someone, (apellate court) would come to their senses and stop these people from kidnapping these children.

But I'm with Blarney, where the hell are all the do gooders that was ready to linch these people and never allow these children near their families ever again?

Of course this issue with me was never about child abuse. It was about our government coming into a community with tanks and busses to kidnap families without no more than a 911 call from someone reporting a bogus claim of child abuse.

But what bothers me as much about this as the government doing this, is the folks here that thought it was ok, in the name of (Children)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,actually try to argue that children's rights should circumvent the constitution.

Well here's to you all: Bite ME!!!

[blarneology]

In2ropin, you write beautifully. I couldn't have said it better myself. You are my Mark Twain of CSKC.

[T REX]

Blarneology, in2ropin, I couldn't agree with you both more!

[T REX]

Well, the KC Star just took this story and all of it's comments of the front page. In fact, you can't find the story anywhere and the link I have is suddenly no good.

Anybody know what's going on with this? I'm hoping this isn't some sort of Liberal bias going on here. I can still access the past stories relating to FLDS being accused of crimes, but not this one that shows the government being wrong on this one.

[Realist]

I just got here using the link from the front page.

[in2ropin]

Yea, I did too. T REX, must be something wrong with the brouser.

Blarney, thanks but Mark Twain? I wished.

[T REX]

I'm talking about the story that was at the top of the page in the breaking news section, not this link. You couldn't find it anywhere for awhile. I see it's back up again in the Nation/World section and all of the previous comments are gone.
If it was a case of improper comments violating the Star's policy, then why are new comments being allowed? Usually, they just shut down the comments but not the story.

[smog]

Can't imagine any other outcome. Are we to believe the mothers of these girls would allow their off spring to be sexually abused? That would make adult females of this cult knowingly deranged. Didn't see any of these women interviewed that appeared mentally deranged. Normal is what a group says it is. It wasn't abnormal for a 15-16 year old to be married 150 years ago (yes I know the argument about living longer). Even though I may not agree, it doesn't make it abnormal or immoral.
To the poster who wondered what this will cost up, I don't believe, unless you live in Texas, this will cost you anything. I do believe this will cost the state of Texas plenty, as it should. Unfortunately the mistakes were made by a few, and not immediately corrected by a few more. Sounds like some attorney, with political upward mobility in mind, was given way too much power. Again, normal is what a large segment of society says normal should be, Sociology 101.

[blarneology]

Fox News Story

[T REX]

Maybe it is the browser in2ropin. I would hate to see debate shut down because of someone's political ideology, no matter what it is. I've seen that on other websites, and I was hoping that it wasn't happening here.

[smog]

Does anyone realize how hot it gets in Texas? How immoral can any cult be that wears dresses to the ankle? All the kids I saw on the news were impeccably dressed, scrubbed and happy as little larks. I'll bet that old perv is secretly drugging every one else in the compound.

[T REX]

Here's the link I was talking about

http://www.kansascity.com/449/story/631628.html

[T REX]

Actually, that's the new link in my previous post. Here is the link from earlier today that I was talking about. I see it's working again. MY BAD, SORRY!!!

http://www.kansascity.com/637/story/630136.html

[blarneology]

Well we all need to remember that they only attacked these people for no reason, invaded their privacy, smeared them in the news and in public, took their children from them, took all their documentation etc. because it's for the children.

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Maybe we should go back and pull up some of the old quotes from other threads where people were so sure these people were perverts raping children and such.

[Gordon Cadmus]

The reality is that CPS and the original judge should be brought up on 450+ counts of Kidnapping, have thier children taken from them and incarcerated for the rest of their lifes; just another example of the states across this country being guilty of lieing, cheating and stealing just to get a conviction or win a case. Afetr watching all of the blogs supporting the CPS decission on what little evidence they had my hope that all of you whom cast judgement on people because of biased media reporting have what you wished on these peope happen to you.
Never mind the King is coming and He will judge you as you have judged and all you self rightous people will be locked up in an eternal prison that you have always desired to happen to others; while the rest of us whom acknowlged our faults and sought forgivness will be healed of the sins that desires to destroy us all. Good Luck to you; as this age is all but over and you will be seperated from forgiven sinners for the rest of eternity just as you have hoped for.

[T REX]

Unfortunately Gordon, if I have my facts straight, I believe they are immune to any charges and/or prosecution. And that's what makes them so dangerous.

Well said, though.

[American]

Speaking about the CPS and the "so called"
courts that add a legal flavor to the CPS actions by RUBBER STAMPING 100% of the time.
CPS suspicions can not be right EVERY time.
Sadly to err in the ... of cation .. often
puts children in foster homes were they are murdered, raped, mentally and physically abused. I have records of several real cases, real children, real deaths (plural)and real HORRIFIC abuse (again plural) .. Many If not MOST foster care homes are in it FOR THE MONEY and the the children are just a necessary bother .. unloved and inadequately cared for.

Does "DUE PROCESS" mean anything anymore?

Should the right to a trial by jury be suspended, when children are taken.

Juries would be ready to CRUSH abusive parents, wouldn't you, I would.

There should NOT exist .. courts like these that ignore the CONSTITUTION .. DUE PROCESS .. and the myriad of other rights denied in these "Salem witch trial" type
trials.

The regular courts in the criminal justice system can BETTER handle these cases.

Probably far more children are abused in foster homes than would be if CPS simply closely monitored "allegations"

Please help our children, they can not help
themselves.

The way is to END the CPS/COURT system and
build a REAL legal,compassionate, effective
and responsible with no agenda other than DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR CHILDREN . legally!

[in2ropin]

Damn American, you had me standing wanting to salute!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and, JUMP and Yell "YEA"!!!!!!!!!!

[bs]

It's a case of the case is to- big for the government to handle.

[Nick]

I knew somewhere, someone, (apellate court) would come to their senses and stop these people from kidnapping these children. in2ropin

Well, your one better than I. I actually thought that they would allow it to go on for as long as CPS wanted, and only years later, be found for what it is.

This whole case has mirrored the Short Creek Raid of the 1950's so completely, I thought they were using it as a guide.

I don't know if it is justice or a nightmare, but I will lay claim to superior cognitive abilities with both you and Blarney when it comes seeing the inevitable outcome. Texas CPS just made these people instantly rich and many times more formidable.

Their old battle plan was much more successful. If you burn the victims to death, it doesn't cost you a dime.

Note to Texas CPS: 1984 WAS A WARINING! NOT A TEMPLATE!

[Nick]

P.S. Congratulations Blarney. You took a lot of heat rounds from the socialists.

[Tom K]

Darn straight, Nick.

[Nick]

Unfortunately Gordon, if I have my facts straight, I believe they are immune to any charges and/or prosecution. And that's what makes them so dangerous. - T REX

Believe it or not, the often renamed Texas CPS is not covered under qualified immunity. In fact, since their participation in burning to death a number of alleged victims, 3 CPS staff have been criminally charged as accessories in the deaths of children that they had failed to act on the behalf of. Of course this was nothing more than a political show as charges were dropped against all the accessories.

Some have actually had the audacity to say that it was for this reason they over reacted in the FDLS case, which of course sounds good. Right up until you remember that they were the agency who started the who mess that allowed the ATF to burn 80 people alive in the name of the Socialist Regime.

[T REX]

Nick, thanks for correcting me on that. Hopefully if any charges are filed this time, they will stick.

I have to second the congrats to Blarney, you didn't waver in the face of heavy fire!

[Nick]

Nick, thanks for correcting me on that. Hopefully if any charges are filed this time, they will stick. - T REX

No problem. Don't count on anything other than massive payouts from the State.

Texas CPS is a mirror train wreck of our Federal Dept of Homeland Security. Instead of recognizing that their entire problem stems from a massive bureaucracy out of control and with a life of it's own. Their solution was to make it even bigger. CPS is but a small part of the bigger umbrella group N.K.A. Department of Family Services.

To address the failings of the CPS the Texas House and Senate decided in their questionable wisdom to increase CPS's staffing by 40 something case workers, 10 more attorneys and 18 assorted gofers, PR specialists, and advocates.

Instead of recognizing that it was time to scrap the entire line up of administrative ideologues, they instead gave them five gallons of gas and said, burn the whole house down. It is what they do.

"So what did the feds really want? I know that the CPS people get themselves all ramped up about protecting kids as if they were feeling the spirit at a tent revival, but what were the feds using this as a cover to find?"

Kay, my apologies for misunderstanding your comment earlier today at 3:10. I misread your post as "FLDS" instead of "CPS". I promise I will get a refund from the school that taught me my speed reading. :)

[laugher]

Sounds like Philly's new job representing the CPS didn't work out too well. Hahahahahaha

It's interesting that the appellate court required more information in a closed society without any consideration to the difficulties in obtaining more detailed information. The circle goes like this - you can't go inside and get information in the closed, gated society without a search warrant. You can't get a search warrant without being able to obtain information. however, you can't get information needed for the search warrant due to the closed, gated community. That would mean - child abuse is acceptable in gated, closed societies where the children and women never leave the compound and officials can't investigate without a search warrant and it's practically impossible to get information for the search warrant due to the closed, gated society.

[blarneology]

I did take a little heat but it's more fun knowing I was right...again. I'm telling ya In2ropin this really is kind of curse. It seems almost like even when I try to be wrong I'm not.

I just wonder what happened to the people who said I support pedophiles, I might be a pedophile, I'm an idiot, the constitution is an outdated piece of paper ad nauseum. It really is funny how these people disappear.

Oh Look, we have someone still talking about child abuse even though there is no proof of it even after kidnapping the children and having them live in fear of the government in different prison like environments.

You have to give them credit for sticking to it even though it appears the facts really don't support their ideas.

Though I doubt that all children are experiencing child abuse, based on what is going on in Arizona and Utah told to us by former FLDS members, the following is probably happening in Texas:

1) white supremacist belief - children are trained to look down on those who are not white (fact - those helping with the Texas FLDS children who were not white received derogatory comments from the children)

2) Trained to lie to the Gentiles (non FLDS members) - even practice with the children on how to lie to the outsiders (fact - Texas FLDS children and mothers kept changing their last names, ages, etc - when DNA testing was done - they took a picture of the individual as names were a game of musical chairs amongst the FLDS members).

3) Older men marrying girls as young as 13/14. Fact - One former FLDS member's husband decided to marry her younger sister, too. He was concerned that she might feel uncomfortable having sex with him the first few times and asked her to participate with them (wives never say no to their husbands in FLDS). Imagine an 8th grader having a three some with a 50 year old man and her sister? Isn't that just great?

4) Incest does occur in some families (not all). If the daughter gets pregnant by her father, they do have abortions by giving her a large dose of anesthesia to abort the child "naturally".

5) Physical abuse does happen in some families. The abuser makes sure the bruises are hidden by the long clothes with long sleeves. They never slap in the face, neck, and hands intentionally.

6) If they suspect someone is trying to leave, they have armed guards at the gates (remember this is a closed, gated community) so they can't get out and are basically imprisoned on the compound.

Not all of the FLDS families experience this other than the lying and white supremacist belief (notice all of their lawyers are white?). But how does one protect those who are experiencing some of the atrocities outlined in a closed society? If all of the children are returned before the investigation is done (takes longer with 460+ people than just 2-3 children at a time), including those who are abused, investigating any further will be impossible. If CPS states that the abuser can't stay in the home with the children, they will stay, conveniently be gone when CPS visits (have to be arranged - closed society - impossible to just "drop in") - Arizona and Utah are great escapes for them), and the abuser will return once CPS has left. Even in our society, if abuse is suspected in a home, the children have to be removed to "protect them". If they stay in the home during the investigation, the parents will force them to lie and cover up for the abuse. Life gets worse for that child and the investigation will not be that fruitful. NOTHING WILL CHANGE FOR THOSE WHO ARE BEING ABUSED if they continue to be in an abused home.

I think one of the psychologists remarking on the FLDS way of life said it best. FLDS is a pedophile's heaven. And apparently, if you're a closed society - that's exactly what it is.

The courts didn't say there wasn't a possibility that abuse isn't happening in individual families. What they did say was there was not enough evidence to say all of the children are in immediate danger of being abused. It's similar to saying that not all of Overland Park, kansas children are being abused. However, there may be individuals families in Overland Park where abuse is occurring and that CPS should focus on those families and not the entire city.

[blarneology]

The courst said there was NO EVIDENCE! not "not enough" evidence. It was very plain in the state offered "No Proof".

The big long post is just a bunch of guesswork and more smear from someone else obvious still interested in attacking people for their religious beliefs. I'm glad our founding fathers were smart enough to point out our rights so wayward thinking like this would have no affect on people they don't agree with.

[American]

In TODAY'S Jacksonville news.

Former Jaguar, wife admit to hurting foster child …..

Rich and Janie Tylski were arrested in 2006 after their foster-care daughter told police she was the victim of repeated abuse.

They were accused of hitting the 8 year old girl with a belt, slamming her head on a table and other abuse that left the girl with broken bones in her hands and legs.

Since the couple was first arrested in 2006, the Tylskis have insisted they did nothing wrong; however, in court on Thursday they admitted to something different.
.....................................

What does this ... among "thousands" of other FOSTER-CARE abuses tell you.

Tells me most children should be left with parents that LOVE them. Not ALL but most. Sure closely monitored but as law dictates in all states MAKE EVERY POSSIBLE EFFORT to keep families together.

CPS is family destroying ... faith destroying .. organization running a muck in EVERY state that I am aware of.

Most .... and I do mean MOST "foster-care" abuses are "covered up".

An EXAMPLE:

If you do not have special access to records
you would not know that ... FOSTER PARENT Richard A (RICK) Gardner .. raped a 13 year old he was paid by the state to protect and care for ... (not statutory) real FORCEFUL RAPE ...

HIS PUNISHMENT ..
No public record ... Name NOT on sexual predator list ..
Apparently the case was "specially covered"
by "Children and Families"

There is a record ... just not PUBLIC ..
but " YOU" CAN find it!

YOU ... the one reading this now .. CAN make
a difference ..

Please help "little defenseless children"i

INVESTIGATE ... the so called "family courts" in YOUR community .. and their exemption from constitutional and DUE PROCESS law.

The DEMAND justice from your senators state and national ... and other elected officials .. if they don't comply .. IMPEACH them.

ALL is not lost YET!

[American]

More "Foster Parents" the Sullivans

The teen weighed only "49 pounds" and was kept in an enclosed crib "similar to a cage" that had a chain and padlock.

Police said the Sullivans have only told investigators they kept the teen inside the locked crib because he was gorging himself on food at night.

According to the police report, the "17-year-old" was height of an average 9½-year-old and "weight of an average 6½-year-old". The boy was wearing a diaper when found.

One of the children, a young girl, described how "Sullivan" used to duct-tape her every night:

Prosecutor: Who put you to bed?
Daughter: My mom. ( the foster mother - Brenda Sullivan )
Prosecutor: And how would you get into your bed?
Daughter: They put me in bed because I would be duct-taped.
Prosecutor: Tell us about that. How would you be duct-taped?
Daughter: Head to my feet. My arms right here and to my feet.
Prosecutor: Do you know why you were duct-taped?
Daughter: No.
Prosecutor: Do you know how often you were duct taped?
Daughter: Every day.
Prosecutor: Would you sometimes be awake when you were in your bed cage?
Daughter: Yes.

American, great posts. This part really hits the nail on the head...

"INVESTIGATE ... the so called "family courts" in YOUR community .. and their exemption from constitutional and DUE PROCESS law."

To add my voice, it just makes you wonder, if CPS has such rock solid evidence against so many abusive parents, then why are they exempt from Due Process?

I've read a few posts over the last few weeks that stated if the FLDS members, or any parents likewise, had nothing to hide, why don't they just let CPS in? Answer....because when dealing with CPS, you are considered guilty until proven innocent. That is a perversion of justice practiced by dictatorships. To those people, try asking yourselves this question instead...WHAT DOES CPS HAVE TO HIDE so that they may exempt themselves from Constitutional Law and Due Process? What is their political philosophy that leads them to believe that our Constitutional Rights need be suspended or ignored? The philosophy of those who believe in Democracy? I think not!!

ANY parent/s would be wise to protect themselves from this rogue entity and contact an attorney before you answer any questions from a Social Worker, ESPECIALLY if you are innocent. Remember, you are already considered guilty in their minds. They are there to gather evidence as to your guilt. They are not there to find the truth. Educate yourselves on their motives, such as funding, political ideology, ect. Don't find out the hard way. By then it is too late. I suggest reading the books written by Dean Tong...

http://www.abuse-excuse.com/

Also, ten tips for the "Social Worker at Your Door"...

http://www.theswap.com/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=4418&forum=DCForumID9&viewmode=all

[kcdude]

Above post at 2:15 posted by kcdude.

[Helen]

The state can not say that they found children about to be
decapitated as in the Elior Chen case. They claim that the children's
wellbeing will be at risk in the future. But that is the case with
children everywhere. Parents are now raising babies that will be the
future prostitutes, criminals, and yes the future casualties of war.
The state can not claim that it can guarantee a better life experience
for the children. But the CPS acts as if it is a bank safe for
valuables. As if they posses a way for guaranteed security even for
years down the road. A review of the CPS records show that the only
children that can feel safer with them are the ones out of the Elior
Chen torture chamber. And the rumor now is that the Elior Chen
tortured kids were formerly adopted.

[Format]

The state can not say that they found children about to be decapitated as in the Elior Chen case.
They claim that the children's wellbeing will be at risk in the future.
But that is the case with children everywhere. Parents are now raising babies that will be the future prostitutes, criminals, and yes the future casualties of war.
The state can not claim that it can guarantee a better life experience for the children.
But the CPS acts as if it is a bank safe for valuables. As if they posses a way for guaranteed security even for years down the road.
A review of the CPS records show that the only children that can feel safer with them are the ones out of the Elior Chen torture chamber.
And the rumor now is that the Elior Chen tortured kids were formerly adopted.