Was Wal-Mart right to report parents for kids' nude photos?

In Peoria, Ariz., a couple is suing Wal-Mart and the state because the store called police when workers found photos of naked kids on a memory stick that the couple had left to be processed. The naked kids were their daughters -- ages 5, 4 and 1 -- and the pictures were taken while the girls took a bath. Mom and Dad weren't charged, but the girls were removed from the home for a time. Snip from the Arizona Republic:

One lawsuit names the state of Arizona, Peoria and the state Attorney General's Office as defendants, claiming that employees from each party defamed them by telling friends, family members and coworkers that they had "sexually abused" their children by taking pornographic pictures of them.

Comments

[Jane]

Has all of America lost its common sense?

[Bigdadda]

Yes they have.

[146]

Yes

[Elrond of Rivendell]

This is absurd.

[Sasquach]

Si. A while back, my wife had uploaded a pic. of our daugther in the bath to her "About my Baby" page. I told her it might not be such a good idea considering, among other things, the possibility of being charged with production of child porn. She said that it wouldn't happen, that people have enough sense to know that it isn't child porn. Apperantly the State of Arizona disagrees.

[The Golfer]

But I think the rules at WalMart and any other store is any thing like this must be turned over to the po-po.

Then it is up to CPS and the po-po to make a smart decision.

[Corday]

How many millions of parents have bath time photos of kids? It's all we have to humiliate our kids with when they grow older!

On the serious side this is nuts! If it was a pic of a naked child in a provoctaive pose on a bed then I could see reporting it. But a bath time photo? I have those in my daughters baby book! Sheesh can I be arrested for possessing naked pictures of my own kids? If so then I'd best hide the photos of her birth and first bath then.

[anarchanon]

Of course it's rediculous. It's family baby pictures, healthy and normal. Hell, I bet my 'rents still have some of me from an age ago.

Otoh...

...when *is* it officially sexual? What characteristics does it need to possess before being pornographic? I don't want to be in a position of making that decision.

[Tam]

What were these people thinking? Is there absolutely no common sense used anymore?

[Brad]

"Common sense" is becoming an oxymoron precisely because it is becoming less common.

[KC Cicero]

Common sense died in this country when we decided to let every nutty group of politically correcters -- right & left -- dictate public policy.

It's not just the nuts who think that having pictures of your small children and a bath -- or for that matter on a beach -- without any clothes is somehow pornographic. It's the nuts who think that smacking your kid on the butt is the same as beating him with a tire iron. It's the nuts who think that a teacher who hugs and upset second-grader is the equivalent of a child molester.

It's the nuts who want to lock up people who smoke marijuana, or make traffic offenses into felonies.

It's the nuts who want to treat juvenile offenders as if they were adult criminals, and who want to lock up everyone for long prison terms -- even for nonviolent offenses -- even though it costs more than sending kids to Harvard.

Of course, to the media are to blame blam forc the sensation thin with which they treat everything But the members of the Legislature who pass the silly laws and the prosecutors who filed the stupid charges. Perhaps, stem cell research will find a way to grow them the necessary backbones to refuse to do every foolish thing they are asked to do.

[happynow]

KC Cicero - AMEN!

[Sasquach]

KCC: Si.

[E]

Part of the problem is that if a registered sex offender gets a hold of those innocent pictures posted on websites (like the about my baby) they CAN be charged with possession of child porn. Do I think the state of AZ went too far? Yes. Do I think it was wrong of Wal-Mart to turn it over to the police? No. What if the parents were registered sex offenders and they were producing "innocent" pictures of their kids to trade/sell online to other perverts?!?!

[Saucyjack]

I think if your children ever get naked it should be illegal. I make it a point for my kids to bath in swimsuits and never look at thier own private parts, cause that is were the devil plays.

[Sasquach]

@E,

creepy net pervs are the "among other reasons" I gave my wife for not posting our kids bathtime pics on the web, even if it is on a password protected site.

[Searching]

Saucy.. that was freaking hilarious!

[146]

Was Saucy joking? I hope so.

[anarchanon]

Still waiting: someone explicitly want to draw a line where cute baby pics end and pornography begins? Anyone? 8)

I still can't think of an easy one sentence determining factor.

[rw]

so what is next.. guys being forced to wear shirts all the time. When does the world grow up and realize that being naked is being pure in the eyes of the Lord. To clothe yourself is to hide your shame amd guilt. I say we all get naked and give the world something new to complain about about. Look at the poorer countries where children run around naked for many years before they are finally clothed.. Grow up society and quit living in fear of the naked body. Nudity is beautiful and as long as you don't think of it as sexual in nature then there is nothing wrong with it. Take all the molestors and send them to iraq to fight and bring home our honest straight loving troops.

[Searching]

So.. you want to leave the gay ones there too?

[Derp]

was with you rw till the last line

[kybo61]

When I was a senior in high school, our yearbook staff decided to have a "senior baby page" in the yearbook. Parents of graduating seniors were asked for baby pictures, which were published without names, the idea being that it would be fun for everyone to try and guess which of us matched the baby pictures. My parents, natch, sent a picture of me (a female) about 5 months old, naked in the kitchen sink and holding a big bar of soap (my bottom was not visible). Other parents sent in similar pictures, of kids toddling around wearing diapers, swim suits and so forth. Not every female baby had on a shirt. I wonder if my high school could have guessed that some day they would have child pornography in their archives.

[Davey Smith]

KC Cicero...excellent post!

[AH]

I was just waiting for this to happen and make national news. Soon just being without clothes will be a criminal offense. The 3 second dash at night will cause people to be have to register.

The 3 second dash is the quick run accross a room in the all together to get a midnight snack. Anyone could report you. And please don't tell me that most draw their window coverings 100% of the time.

[KC Brougham]

Don't legislators campaign on how many bills they've introduced.

"I promise not to do one damn thing !"

[Judy]

Meanwhile, the real victims of abuse - those millions of children in foster care - whose parents have absolute proof that they are abused - are ignored.

America has gone insane. Get the hell out while you can.

[Dave]

It is my hope that this couple wins the law suit against the State and against Walmart. People have lost the ability to think for themselves and use discernment wisely. They get so wrapped up in the hysteria created by the media with their own self serving agendas that they lose sight of what is normal or natural within the scope of most families. They don't stop to use reason. As for the comment above from "E"; if the parents were sex offenders, and the pictures were on a memory stick, they would not need to take it to Walmart to trade those pictures with other "perverts" on the internet, as you say. One takes a memory stick to Walmart to get photo prints for photo albums. Is child porn wrong? Of course it is! It can and does cause irreparable damage. But this certainly does not constitute child porn. Wake up people.

[Super Channel Blog]

Dave, your comment about people losing the ability to think for themselves is so true. Think of how many people had to pass it up the chain of command for this to happen. It started with the walmart photo clerk and worked it's way up to someone who had the power to seize the children. Outrageous!

I wonder how much of this kind of behaviour is corporately driven by insane "no tolerance" policies?

At Super Channel blog we've published an article referring to the documentary "Walmart. The high cost of low price"

It's an excellent film that explores some of the corporate culture that is so destructive to our families and our values.

Here is a link:

http://superchannel.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/walmart-and-those-nude-photos-my-mother-took-of-me/

[ghost]

I guess the days of having a cute picture of a bare butt baby on a bear skin rug are over.

How stupid can people in authority be.

[Simon]

reading comments...

'rents and po po

yes... the dumbing down of America continues

[NoJoke]

Since only a few have seen these pictures then maybe it was one of those do I report these or not. How many other pictures of kids in a bath or pool naked have photo center seen and never reported because it was easily seen that they were family photos. I would say these were border line pictures that could be family pictures or child pornography.
If you seen pictures that were on the edge would you report it for the kids or let it go?
I think the problem here is the state failed to do a professional investigation and turned it into a 3 ring circus.
Now will this store fail to turn in some child pornography and some child or children will live a life of hell because of the fear of a law suit. Just think that if these kids had been abducted and used for child pornography these very same workers would be heroes for turning these over to the police. Yes it is a very strange world that we live in.

[Hermetic]

In this climate, what happens when a child reaches puberty and starts to masturbate? Is that child now guilty of child molestation?

[kcsmart]

walmart,& the person working for them should be prosecuted, and put on trial, thats whats the matter with this country , and they said they even REMOVED the children from the home for awhile?? CPS belongs right on the defendent stand with them. the whole thing is absurb. let them go after the ones that really are being abused ,, which most of the time they return them to the ones that are abusing them.leave the little soapy ones alone!!!

[Ni]

I'm so glad my kids grew up before this nonsense became the norm! I have pictures of my boys in the bathtub, sitting on the potty chair, their first time using the potty like a big boy etc… We laugh at these now. Would I place them on the internet for the world to see, absolutely not! However they are a part of their baby books.

I mean do you think child molester’s are taking their “pictures” to Wal-Mart to be developed? Hello that’s what digital printers are for. They can print those in the luxury of their homes! Jesus please take the wheel this world is out of control….

[Sarabepush]

I agree that America has gone off it's rocker in many respects. Bath time pictures of children are not child porn. Our bodies are beautiful and to be celebrated.

But that being said, I work in a photo lab. I have seen many photos that could be questionable, of course it depends on the values and feelings of the person viewing them. Having not seen these pictures none of us are able to give a true opinion on these.

Imagine these two scenarios:
1-Images of 3 kids at bath time, smiling, obviously having fun, but there is full nudity and "private" parts are fully visible.

2- images of 3 kids in a bubble bath. No "privates" clearly visible because of bubble bath, but the kids are not smiling, in fact there are some pictures in which they are crying.

Which ones are the bad ones? Which ones do these unseen pictures we are talking about fall under? What is the focus of the pictures, the smiling faces or the uncovered bodies?

There is such a fine line about the way an image can make us feel, and it can be based completely on the emotions evoked by our own past experiences and have nothing to do with what we are looking at except that it is triggered by the visual stimulus.

[Tom K]

You would think that no one would be as stupid as the social services people who removed the children, but that's affirmative action for you.

[Mom2girls]

Whats horrible is they inspected these poor kids for sexual abuse...which means they were naked while strangers looked at them. Dr or not that is very tramatic to children. First taken from their parents then looked at naked. If they wernt sexually abused they sure feel it now!

[judy]

someone that works at walmart has a sick mind---arrest every parent in america because I know not one that hasn't taken pictures of their children playing in a tub!!!!!

[What a wonder full world]

Why does Americas funniest home videos show naked children and no one sends AbC owners to jail ? why do I change my channel and see a bunch of nude african children on the travel channel ? why do hollywood movies show naked chidren and the producer director not go to jail ?

[Joel Rosenthal]

It's not bad enough that this country is full of people with no common sense and reversed priorities. What's worse is that these people end up in positions of power and responsibility. Let's start with Wal-Mart: This company has a long history of reporting innocent photos to police because it is company policy. Many innocent lives have been damaged or ruined because of their refusal to use common sense. Yet when a neo-Nazi ordered a Nazi-decorated birthday cake for his 3-year old son named "Adolf Hitler," a Wal-Mart bakery was only too happy to oblige.

Next are the criminal justice system and child protective services. Maybe in some places you can count on these institutions to usually do the right thing. But I can cite several examples in which they didn't. A Florida couple locked up foster children in their attic for 8 years. They were found to have abused these kids, yet they got off scot-free--they moved to Alabama with their own children and opened a restaurant. Another couple lost their children because one had multiple fractures. Finally, after a very long time, they got their kids back after it had been learned that the child had brittle-bone disease. These kinds of horror stories abound.

Schools are probably the worst offenders. I know of two 1st-graders who were suspended. One was charged with bringing a weapon to school--it was a toy axe that was part of his firefighter Halloween costume. The other was a boy who kissed a 1st-grade girl and was suspended for sexual harrassment. I also know of two high-schoolers who were disciplined for bringing a weapon to school. One "weapon" was a butter knife, which accompanied the butter in her lunch. The other was an eyebrow shaver. Can you just imagine the havoc one could could cause by wielding an eyebrow shaver? She was expelled. Yet how many schools even try to get a handle on bullying, which is a serious problem in most schools? Not many. Meanwhile, many school districts wouldn't let the President of the United states speak to their students to encourage them to work hard in school and do their homework (read the text of his speech if you don't believe me).

It's about time that Americans with common sense stood up for it and forced these idiots out of positions of authority and responsibility. We can stop shopping at Wal-Mart, and we can call out politicians and school board members and insist that common sense prevail. If we can't get anywhere with the elected officials, throw the bums out!

[pgwodeshed]

No wonder people in Arizona fear big government. Too bad they focus on the federal government when more often it is state and local governments that trample upon constitutional rights.

[Ben from Baltimore]

Does anybody remember Robin Williams in the movie One-Hour Photo? I can picture his character as the Wal-Mart clerk. These are innocent childhood photos. I have a half dozen of photos similar to these of my 6 year old half sister that my stepmom has taken over the years in a photo album upstairs. Most people have had to have seen the Wal-Mart TV ad of the kid getting out of the bathtub and her mom wrapping her up in a towel? They need to tape record this ad off of the TV and use it against Wal-Mart in court. Wal-Mart supports a country that oppresses free speech and wants to do the same here? What a bunch of hypocrites.

[Amy W]

Maybe someone should question the walmart employee. I mean it was this person who saw something sexual in these pictures maybe the walmart employee is really the one with a problem here because when I look at these picture not one sexual idea comes into my mind!

[Ginger M]

If parents want to take nude pictures of their children, use a digital camera and print the pictures at home. WalMart did the right thing. If you ever worked at a photo lab, you would know that nude pictures of children must be turned over to authorities. The police and Child Protect Service made the call about the safety of these children. BTW, two of the kids were 4 and 5 years old. They were not babies and should not have their pictures taken naked. I have read further on this. Some of the pictures were taken when the children were sitting on the bedroom floor in such a way the authorities felt they were purposely posed that way. There just may be more to this situation than is being told.

[test]

test

[test]

What is Child Pornography? the Answer from an expert.

Title 18 section 2256 of the US code defines this well.

In short - child porn is pics of children having SEX! (sex, oral Sex, anel sex, Masturbation, S&M, bestiality, lascivious display of the pubic area(ie - cum shots))

Thus a photo of two totally nude 13 yo girls kissing and foundling each others breasts, . . . IS NOT pornographic under the law!

Don't believe me, good - look it up. while your at it look up these world famous nude child photographers. (David Hamilton, Jock Sterges)
many bookstore have their book on their shelves.

It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to accidently make child porn! And once you know the TRUE definition it is easy to distinguish between child porn and everything else.

so what does this mean? it means that YOU now know more about what qualifies as child porn then every person in the chain of command an Wal-Mart, CPS, and the 'po-po'.

It is said to realize that the police have had so little education in LAW!

I hope the perrents WIN! (BIG)

[Jeff]

Worse than the idiot who turned them in was the authorities removing the children from the home. Seriously?! Really?!! Seriously??!

[infinityshock]

the overzealous individuals in law enforcement responsible for this travesty need to lose their jobs. theyre so engrossed in the their mistaken opinion that everyone is a criminal theyve lost sight of reality. its a shame this country has devolved to the point of being a police state with no freedom from the fear of being arrested and your child kidnapped from you.

[CPS can go to HELL]

WAKE UP PEOPLE.....THIS HAPPENS EVERYDAY! CPS takes children from loving homes every single day....in fact more than 70% of children in foster homes are taken from normal... loving families....I know I was one of them. CPS took my newborn baby right out of my arms...it took me 7 months to get him back...I am suing them now but its very hard because CPS has something called "qualified Immunity" which makes it nearly impossible to sue them and win. By the grace of God I got my baby back but I missed out on 7 months of his life and I cannot even begin to describe the pain I felt when they stole my baby. I cried for two weeks straight and went into major depression. It was total hell and no one would even help me...I couldn't even find an attorney that would help me because they would tell me CPS has all power and you just have to do whatever they tell you to get your child back. SICK SYSTEM...BE WARE!!!!