KCPD: Plaza crowds were planned

From Bob Cronkleton: The gathering of rowdy teens on the Country Club Plaza Saturday evening was planned and not a random event, Kansas City police said this morning.

Students from different high schools throughout the area had been using Twitter and Facebook to plan an “unruly gathering” last week, said Officer Darin Snapp, a police spokesman.

“Unfortunately there were people who knew about it but didn’t call us until after it was over,” Snapp said.

(From James: It sounds a little like the "flash mob" situation that Philadelphia had in its South Street district a few weeks ago. I think fans of "real" flash mobs would probably flinch at that description, though. Their events are usually planned on a moment's notice, and they usually involve something more whimsical, like everybody bursting into song at the same time.)

Blog KC has a post about the situation here. 

South Kansas City Observer has a very level-headed take on how to fix things.

MO Rage has a series of posts, including this one.

More from Bob Cronkleton: Police Chief Jim Corwin is expected to be briefed about the gathering that attracted large crowds — totaling an estimated 500 to 1,000 people — to various spots in the shopping district.

Police used pepper spray to break up disturbances.

More information about what occurred Saturday evening is expected to be released later today.

Comments

[Jane]

This is what happens when you have a ton of parents with their thumbs stuck up their butts. Apparently they have better things to do other than parent.

[Searching]

Great.... here we go.. it's all fun and games until someone gets shot, stabbed, or tased.

[Marvin]

The flash mobbing thing was funny at first, but I think a lot of opportunists have realized they make a great setting for criminal behavior. Obviously, the vast majority of people were there for stupid, kid fun. But, all it takes is a couple of idiots to make you all look bad (which is what happened).

[AJ]

Of course it was planned! DUH! 700 kids don't just "happen" to show up causing all this crap! This is what is called a "flash mob" look it up, it is very popular in "urban" areas. Get your damn kids in line parents or you may be putting he/she 6 feet under before they graduate high school!! People are packin now a days, people will not put up with this intimidation and violence!!!!!

[Tom K]

The teens planned a party night and this is some kind of criminal conspiracy? Loosen up, people. You're causing your own headaches.

[AJ]

Tom,

This was more than a party, this was violent. Many of these kids were banging on car windows and pulling on car doors yelling at people to get out of their car! You sir need to get a CLUE!!!

[Patty PV]

Tom, if your idea of "party night" is 700 unruly teenagers roaming the streets, kindly invite them to your neighborhood for a block party.

[Searching]

Tom.. flash mobs have started reeking havoc on the east coast, and now it is here. Ask the people in Philly, that had to repair the glass fronts on their business, and employees, that needed stitches and casts.. just how they feel about it.

[party party]

Flash mob tonight at Tom's house!

[Jellybean]

I was once stupid teen bordering on juvenile deliquency. Aren't there teen hangouts around here? I grew up in the backwoods so all we had were dirtroads, fields, and river banks. But, if 3 cars happened to gather at a gas station in town, the cops would harrass us... and for good reason. We weren't planning charity fundraisers.
Teens NEED a teen place so that grown-ups can have a grown-up place.

[Tom K]

You all should read about the "Mods and Rockers" in Stanley Cohen's "Folk Devils and Moral Panics." That's all I'm going to say right now.

[Anarchanon]

Wait, I thought we *wanted* the people to revolt... 8P

[EsqEB]

I bet half the KCMO police force is down in the plaza this weekend. Makes sense, if all the "criminals" are going to be down there, then that's where the police need to be.

[Wow!!!]

A friend of mine and her boyfriend were brutally beaten and robbed walking from Barnes and noble to the Cheesecake Factory this past Saturday, no one intervened....two people were attacked and beaten by a group of 10 or more young males and no one intervened on their behalf. The female was assaulted first, and then they were both jumped for no reason and her purse was stolen...what the heck is going on? I used to like to take evening walks on the Plaza....what a shame.

[Jane]

Flash mob tonight at Tom's house!

Posted by: party party

Tom's mom is going to be soooo pissed!

[Chuck McRizzo]

And thats why you CCW no matter where you go in KC now. Flash "mobsters" wanna assoult people, lets see how they like it when someone actually defends themself.

[Tom K]

No wonder the world's so messed up. We hate on our teenagers.

[Drasil]

Chuck, even I might hesitate to pull on 700 people (unless I had an old M60.) (I don't say that to try to sound like a bad-ass, but I didn't earn a nickname of "Crazy" while in the Corps for doing especially sane things.)

[Drasil]

Besides, if 700 or so people had heard about this through Facebook or twitter - shouldn't there be someway the po po can do a periodic search of subjects to find out if this is going on?

[Searching]

Flash MOB of CCW people at the plaza this Saturday night... pass it on.

[James Hart]

I respect the right to carry concealed, but I have a hard time imagining how adding guns to a situation like Saturday night's fiasco would improve things.

[Searching]

No wonder the world's so messed up. We hate on our teenagers.

Posted by: Tom K | Monday, April 12, 2010 at 12:09 PM

Only because they deserve it. These are not just teens, they are thug, gansta wanna bees. They would beat up anyone with their pack dog mentality. They are like vermin in the streets. someone is going to get shot.. you wait and see.

Then we will have to watch as some raggedy ole ho, tells all the tv stations.. that he was a good boy.. they didn't have to shoot em, he never did nothing. And then we can all puke.

[Patty PV]

Tom: This is not moral panic OR hating on our teenagers. It is not the Mods or Rockers, any more than it is the Sharks or the Jets.

Your position seems to be that if one travels to the Plaza with the expectation of enjoying spending money on dinner and a movie, it is perfectly OK if instead they are unable to navigate the streets - and should even enjoy being harassed physically - because so many kids have chosen an upscale retail area as their playground for the evening.

That's just nuts, both for consumers and the merchants. If the parents fail to control the kids, I'm sure the police will step in.

[killemall]

Between the Plaza, Westport, and the P&L district, (and Toms house) we can have these gatherings every weekend and keep the cops running in circles. Where should we meet this weekend kids? It can't be at my house, I only have one bathroom.

[Unbelievable]

I'm a bit shocked at what the observer said...

"For adults, as many charges as can be thought of, and they get to sit in jail until bailed out. Repeat until the word is out that acting the fool in the Plaza will get you thrown in jail."

Sorry you just dont make up charges, thats wrong. Acting a fool isn't illegal. It shouldn't be surprising that geting that many kids together you going to have a few bad apples.

So here is the nature of the problem you can't go around arresting people for being in a public area. The kids knew that, which is why the walked around with impunity. If cops arrest them without cause... well your going to have one HELL of a civil suit.

This will happen again, they get a kick out of messing with people.. an intimidation of sorts. There is little you can do about it, that is with within the confines of the law. Its prefectly legal for them to wander around the plaza like everyone else. Only when its an issue of crewfew or violence can the officers do anything. Even then they can't arrest hundreds of them, they can only arrest the ones that are causing the problem.

What to do. Well there isn't much you can do without changing the law. Then you have all kinds of other problems, issues of race comes to mind. I guess you could block off the Plaza like they do in westport. However, thats going to be costly and the flash mobs will just target another area, like some kind of smack the gopher game.

Is there a solution that doesn't curtail rights?

[FanDanGo]

Can you say "River Quay"?

When people feel threatened -- whether the threat is real or not -- they will vote with their feet. They will stay away or go elsewhere.

If authorities don't get a handle on this and quickly, you're going to see the Plaza follow it's enclosed mall brethren into a retail twilight . . .

[cripjak]

Clockwork Orange.

[sly]

The commentary is "interesting". The Star wrote that "people couldn't walk down the sidewalk because of the crowds." Well doesn't that presume that some people have a right to the sidewalk, and other people--say, young black teens--don't have the right? If it was swarming with Christmastime traffic would we see a journalist write, "people couldn't walk down the sidewalk because of shoppers"? Heck no we wouldn't. I think this assumption that some people have more right to sidewalks & city venues (eg, KCP&L) that's part of the underlying problem here.

The other part of the problem is that a few bad apples ruined things for everyone else. I used to cruise the Plaza from time to time as a teenager just like every other teenager in the city. Telling black teens they can't will only further feed resentment.

The police need to focus on the bad apples & leave the rest of them alone.

[gee]

Sly--

I get your point, but there's a difference between loitering and shopping.

I too, as a teen back in the 80's, cruised the plaza . . . also got rousted out a few times for well, just hanging-out and not spending any money . . . loitering.

[Phil]

Are the flash mobs and assaults just isolated incidents by a small population of "bad kids" or is there a big, mounting problem that has been ignored?

Read, watch, consider and please comment. Thanks!
:http://bit.ly/bwlkRt

[Sitting Bull]

"Flash MOB of CCW people at the plaza this Saturday night... pass it on." - Searching

Not on your life or mine, babe. This CCW holder reasons through actions and decisions, unlike the author of the request.

I'm not your personal vigilante pawn. Play with somebody else's life.

Typical of those with NPD and/or BPD, the rest of us are just pawns on the chess board.

KCMO PD has its work cut out. Hopefully cooler heads with prevail on both sides.

Searching, you ever see Jack Nicholson's final rant from "A Few Good Men?"

[MMB]

Are the flash mobs and assaults just isolated incidents by a small population of "bad kids" or is there a big, mounting problem that has been ignored?

Read, watch, consider, comment. Thanks!
:http://bit.ly/bwlkRt

[Tom Servo]

"I respect the right to carry concealed, but I have a hard time imagining how adding guns to a situation like Saturday night's fiasco would improve things."

Tell that to the couple who was beaten and robbed and to the girl who was attacked. Are you saying you support concealed carry as long as the gun is never actually used in any capacity?

[James Hart]

Tom: There's a chance they could have scared off their attackers. There's also an excellent chance that wild gunfire would have hit a bystander -- more than a few of those running around -- or led to even more stampeding or put the police on even more a hair trigger.

[kpop]

its deplorable behavior by ill mannered youth , black or white. arrest them, keep them in jail until mom or dad can bail them out, hit them with fines, court appearances, community service and probation. Can't let them get away with this or it will continue. How about we teach our youth there are consequences for bad behavior. what a novel idea.

[OMG]

These kids are going make it so people like myself won't ever want to go to the plaza to eat dinner or shop - I will stay in my "comfort" zone and not go there! Knew someone where was down there (just ate at pizza kitchen) and just walking and some boy grabbed her ass - while his friend tried to grab another girls purse! Shits gotta stop

[Drasil]

Tom S - I agree with James here. If the person so attacked had pulled a firearm, several things could have happened. 1) Unless they pulled and fired immediately, the weapon probably would have been taken from them, 2) When they pulled and fired several other members of the crowd could pull their "illegal" firearms and the gunfight would be on, 3) After the shooting, the crowd is enraged and all hell breaks loose.

I'm a proponent of CCW - but there is such a thing as knowing when to use it. I don't know what I would have done in this situation. Hopefully, I won't find out.

[Sitting Bull]

A crowd of 700 - 900 young people is not the right situation for a citizen carrying a handgun - period.

Anyone suggesting it doesn't understand the first thing about human behavior, weapons, ballistics, the law, or preserving life.

[francine]

"Well doesn't that presume that some people have a right to the sidewalk, and other people--say, young black teens--don't have the right?"

Don't compare apples and oranges, Sly. There is a huge difference between people walking with purpose and people loitering. Were those kids patronizing the restaurants? Seeing a movie? Enjoying a cup of coffee? Or were they just stationary on the sidewalks, with no other reason to be there? Why were all of those kids there?

[Drasil]

I'll say that, IMHO, that most of the kids there were there to make an appearance. However, as the saying in the Corps goes, these is always that 10% that screw it up for everyone.

[Carl Panzram]

I think the real question here is when is the curfew going to be amended and made more strict? They need to lower the time that the kids can be out and running amok and beef up the fines for both the juveniles and the parents.

After that arrest the punks that planned and organized this riot. Then charge the hell out of them and let the people that were injured and the businesses that suffered property damage sue the living bejeesus out of them. Granted they probably wouldn't get much but they could send a clear cut message that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated. A few lawsuits aimed at facebook and myspace would also change their behavior too.

[Chuck McRizzo]

"preserving life."

It's funny you say that SB. So whats wrong with protecting yourself? Or are you suggesting if a group of people attempt to asail you just to ask them to please stop as they beat you?

[TKinKC]

In Nashville, they had this problem downtown (where all of bars, restaurants and other nightlife occurred). It was so bad that it took 2-3 hours to drive 1/2 mile through downtown. They simple banned anyone under the age of 18 from the area after 9:00 on the weekends. Frankly, there is no reason for kids to be someplace where they can't legally (bars) or fiscally (the shops) use the services. I don't see why they don't just ban anyone under 18 from the Plaze after a certain time. The last thing we need is for the Plaza to go the way of Westport.

[Drasil]

TKinKC, Or Bannister, or Indian Springs, or Blue Ridge.

[Drasil]

Chuck, it would be hard to not defend yourself. In the past, I've never been known for self-restraint, but I don't know what I would have done here. Unfortunately, most times I don't think when threatened, I just react. Would filling a punk with holes be the correct answer? Damned if I know - I guess it's just a shade less obnoxious then breaking his neck. But, then again, if you were being physically attacked, you could probably get off better in court if you had just broke his neck or ripped out his windpipe versus shooting him.

[Patty PV]

Sly, in this case there were so many teenagers present that the police didn't have a chance to separate out the bad apples.

And the difference between this crowd and Christmas shoppers? Well, Christmas shoppers don't normally throw gang sides and shout "Five Ace Deuce." There is a detailed report on another thread laying out exactly what happened. Business entrances were being blocked; people weren't able to enter, or exit, businesses. People from out of town were asking police if this was what the Plaza was like, because they were never going to come back. The bad apples were so intimidating that police provided escorts for them to get to their cars. The whole crowd gradually moved east, forcing Winstead's to close early because of an aggravated assault in their parking lot.

I cruised the Plaza as a teenager too - after I was 16, with one or two friends. It was fun to sit at Putch's Sidewalk Cafe, order a cup of coffee, listen to tunes and people-watch. But some of the kids in this report weren't teenagers. What are kids 11 - 15 doing out that late without any supervision? Out for coffee?

I've seen "crowd mentality" take hold of people of all races (black, white, oriental) and it's not a good thing. It can be very scary.

[Sitting Bull]

No, Chuck, I carry everywhere I go. I wouldn't hesitate to use my weapon to preserve the lives of my loved ones or my own life...

...but I'm not about to go to an area that I know is going to be packed with 1000 teens looking for trouble.

Anybody suggesting we do so is a few feathers short of a full war bonnet.

If I would have been on the Plaza on Saturday, I would NOT have used my weapon. Not with that many kids around. Not unless they were trying to kill a family member or myself. Just showing a weapon around a wild mob is not a controlled situation.

Just because you carry doesn't mean you use. Discretion is always the better part of valor.

The weapon must only be used when you are reasonably confident you are and will remain 100% in control at all times.

Didn't you pay attention in training?

[Chuck McRizzo]

Drasil thats true but you're assuming I have military training enough to break someones neck with my bare hands.

[sly]

Francine--You can't tell me that every single person who goes to the Plaza is purchasing something. As Wow!!! said up above he "likes to take evening walks on the Plaza". Sometimes I go to malls & such to window shop, or people watch. Window shopping & people watching is not arrestable behavior. And we're talking about sidewalks. If these kids can hang on the sidewalk in their own neighborhood legally, then they can hang on Plaza's sidewalks as well.

I'm not saying don't punish the bad apples--I support harsh penalties for hoodlums attacking people--but there's a racial undercurrent to this that needs to be made explicit. We can't just say, "Hey all you law abiding black kids, get out." The enforcement has to be focused on those people committing the crime, not just those who happen to also be black. There's a distinction in the two & its a key distinction.

[gee]

Sitting Bull--

A well-reasoned point!