On Monday, the creator and executive producer of "The Shield," and member of the Writers Guild of America's negotiating strike team, called to talk about the 11-weeks-on writers' strike. Among the highlights, Ryan knocked down reports that "The Shield's" final season was "in the can," commented on the late-night hosts who seem to be a breed apart when it comes to griping about the union, defended the decision to include reality and animation writers in the negotiations, and weighed in on strike scribe Nikki Finke.
Ryan also predicted that Americans would begin to really feel the effects of the strike "this week."
(This interview has been annotated and edited, mostly to make me look good.)
So as a member of the negotiating committee, where do things stand right now?
We’re still at a standstill, because the AMPTP left the bargaining table in early December and hasn’t returned. It’s been our feeling then and now that even though they’ve issued various press releases trying to explain their behavior, they wanted to negotiate with the DGA before discussing with us. (The Directors Guild of America and AMPTP began talks last weekend; DGA president Michael "49 Up" Apted said the two sides were within "shouting distance" on key goals.)
A few things could come out of that. The DGA knows that making a deal early, but one that wouldn’t work for us, wouldn’t necessarily get everyone back to work, so they could negot a deal that’s in the ballpark for us. (Here's a very good piece from today's LA Times by former WGA counsel Jonathan Handel arguing just that.)
But one of the worries is they have a different membership. The ones who run the group are big directors for whom residuals aren’t necessarily important. But they could come up with something that gives the AMPTP a face-saving way of doing something for us. That’s the best case scenario for … getting something done in the next 2-3 weeks.
They could also come up with a deal that’s unacceptable to us. I’m not privy to the directors' guild negotiations so it’s hard to say at this moment.
How aware do you think the public is about the strike? (This EW survey, out today, suggests the effects are being felt.)
I think the effects are really building in force this week. The networks have been holding back episodes, but the last "Grey's Anatomy" aired last Thursday. For people who like "American Idol," it will be back, but I’m not sure people who don’t watch it will tune in just because it's on and their favorite show isn't.
The fact is that as popular a show as "American Idol" is, it’s not nearly as profitable to Fox as "24" is, mostly because of the aftermarket that Fox can sell "24" through, such as to foreign territories. "American Idol," once the episode airs, there’s very little Fox can do with that episode into perpetuity.
"24" fans aren’t happy. They’re used to coming back in January and seeing that four-hour launch over two nights. "Sarah Connor," I know the two guys from that show, the first two hours I'm told went very well, but they only have eight episodes in the can, and the last two or three they didn’t work on. The network finished them and God knows how it will look.
An unconfirmed report I received over the winter break alleged that there were only three more episodes of "The Simpsons" in the can, and now one of those has aired. Yet I keep reading that there are tons of "Simpsons" and "Family Guy" episodes ready to go.
I’ve spoken to David Goodman who is the executive producer of "Family Guy," because I’d read that Fox was bragging that it had episodes through next fall. According to him, those shows aren’t done and can’t be completed without the writers. Once again, this continues a pattern by the AMPTP, which is to tell Wall Street one thing and tell us the other. Fox is telling Wall Street, “Nothing to see here.”
You have gone on record saying that you would not touch an episode of "The Shield," which is in its final season, until the strike was over. But they've been written and shot; you directed the series finale. Aren't you afraid the network is going to go ahead and produce the episodes without you?
I think the creative executives at FX hate the idea of me not checking work on the show, unlike some shows where the work was done without the producers. "The Shield" isn’t feeling any time pressures for now because nothing has premiered. Everything’s in a suspended state of animation. If the strike were to drag on and FX were to put "The Shield" on the air, then the clock would be ticking.
I read that FX was saying "The Shield" has 13 episodes ready to go. Well, I can tell you that sound work hasn’t been done on the last six or seven and I haven’t looked at the last three, including the finale. I have director’s cuts of those episodes in an envelope in my house. My entire post-production staff has been disassembled. There is no final mix cut of "The Shield" for the last six episodes.
While technically they would be able to cobble together the last three episodes, I doubt that was the way the network wants it to go out. It was a watershed series for them, and it got them going. But if they’re saying in the press that "The Shield" is ready to go, it indicates to me that there’s a deeper deception going on about what they’ve actually got in the can. But that I think is going on on a corporate level, not on a studio level. The FX guys want me to succeed, but the corporate bigshots who are extending the length of the strike are telling the shareholders, “Don’t worry, we’ve got lots of episodes in the can,” and hoping that people don’t understand the way the industry works.
And how about "The Unit"?
"The Unit," we were in the process of filming episode 12 when the strike happened. We had some partially finished scripts. The last few episodes I didn’t get a chance to do all my editorial work, sound and post work that I would normally do on an episode. CBS made the decision to have others complete that work and to air the episodes. That made me sad so I didn’t watch them.
What's the endgame for the 2007-2008 television season? When does the strike need to end?
In order to get some new episodes on the air for May sweeps, the strike would have to be settled by late February, early March.
If the strike isn’t settled by early March, you won’t see any scripted television for the remainder of this television season. If they don’t have a chance to make a lot of new pilots, you might see a lot of new episodes from shows that would’ve otherwise been cancelled. But I think you would also see something that a lot of creatives have wanted for a long time — which is year-round development. Instead of having 60-70 pilots shooting at the same time in a big feeding frenzy,they’ll just shoot one in March, one in April, one in May, one in June.
"The Shield" was actually shot outside the pilot season. Peter Liguori and Kevin Reilly (former FX executives now at Fox), I know they like that. The networks will move more toward (cable): If they like the pilot, they’ll just bring it on.
We usually get a hiatus in April or May. I’ve been hearing a lot of rumors that when the strike ends the companies will just have us work, no hiatus, through the spring of 2009.
Do you think the Writers' Guild mishandled the late night situation? Leno just keeps doing his show, with no apparent loss in viewership. Dave got shaved on his show, not exactly a writer-intensive activity. I think viewers are having trouble telling who's got the writers and who doesn't. Meanwhile, you have hosts like Bill Maher, who was complaining about the union on his show, Jon Stewart — who we hear was never that thrilled about his guys joining the WGA last year — he's complained on his show, too.
I didn’t watch Bill’s show Friday night. The breed of writer/late night host is an interesting one. These guys like to be on TV and they like to present themselves in the best possible way and when they don’t have writers they lose their safety net.
I think you’ll see especially on Leno’s show the quality of guests go down. As long as SAG won’t cross the picket lines, I think that’s what really hurts them.
I’ve never heard a Writers' Guild member complain about the goals of what we’re after. There’s always a lot of ongoing conversation about the strategy. That’s healthy, and I think we’re strong enough to withstand dissenting opinion. I think previous strikes have faltered because there’s been internal dissension about the goals. You’re going to have opinionated people like Bill Maher complain about the strategy, but you’re not going to hear anyone complaining about the goals that are important to all of us.
Well, that brings us to the hot potato of reality and animation. I think a lot of people were wondering if it was a good idea to include getting WGA cards for reality and animation writers, seeing how that distracted from the primary goal of getting paid for Internet streams. Is getting those guys in the union a goal or a strategy?
Look, we put out a host of things that we wanted to address in this contract. The companies did too. What the companies have tried to get us to do is unilaterally take things off the table without offering anything in return. Are these as important as internet residuals? Of course not, but that doesn’t mean we give those to them for free.
You look at a movie like "Ratatouille," which I thought was pretty brilliant — that was not covered under a Writers' Guild contract. Now, you can’t tell me that was inferior to any other movie. I know that some animation contracts are with another union. Our only point is that animation that’s not covered under any other union should be covered by the Writers' Guild. That doesn’t seem very unreasonable to me. If you’re going to use our talent and make huge budget animated movies that are going to rake in revenues in the hundreds of millions of dollars, those writers should have the benefit of a Writers' Guild contract and the residuals and health care and pension and other benefits that come from that.
What I'd like to see TV writers address with these reality shows is the sweatshop conditions that exist on these reality shows. These companies, because the networks dictate these shows come in under a certain budget, they’re having their employees, who create these stories and shape these stories, actually punch time cards and lie about the number of hours they actually work. They’re reporting that they’re only working 45 hours a week, which is the maximum under these contracts, when they’re actually working 90 hours a week. And then they’re signing false time cards.
These companies have begun getting sued for back overtime pay and some judgments have gone against them. There’s going to be a tragedy at some point where somebody who worked a 16-hour days and punched out early and is driving home at 4 a.m. gets in an accident. This opens a huge can of worms liabilitywise for these companies.
Having said that, is that what we’re striking about? Not necessarily. But we felt it was worth talking about.
Here’s the scary thing. These companies are the ones who deliver the news to America. And for them to routinely issue press statements that aren’t true -- and they’re the ones that run ABC News, NBC, News< CBS News Fox etc. -- these people feel so free to lie, and there are so few TV news outlets as it is. It’d be one thing if they just came out and said “You know what? We’re not ready to make a deal with the Writers Guild and we’d rather deal with the Directors Guild because we can make a better deal with them.” I’m used to people lying but when the owners of the major news divisions feel so comfortable lying about stuff, it gets a little scary.
And then you see what NBC did to its news division with last night’s "Golden Globes" (press outlet/Billy Bush stupidfest), it’s kind of sad. NBC probably lost as much on the “Golden Globes” as it would have paid us in one year. Jeff Zucker (head of NBC Universal) helped make “Sarah Connor Chronicles” a big hit last night. (Fox chief) Peter Chernin should send Jeff Zucker a nice fruit basket.
I'm going to Sundance this week to look at documentaries. Do you think there's going to be more of a feeding frenzy there because the distributors aren't getting all the movies they normally would?
The feature world is going to be slower feeling the effects of this strike, but I’m not sure that buying some little independent feature is going to make up for not having the script ready to shoot next year’s James Bond movie. They had accelerated a lot of production pre-strike, and they’re trying to make movies now but they’re having a lot of troubles because a lot of these scripts aren’t ready, and they weren’t expecting that the writers would strike in November.
My prediction is 12-18 months from now you’re going to see a lot of bad movies. They’ll make them, but they won’t be as good as they could’ve been.
Nikki Finke and I aren't speaking right now, so you can tell me exactly what you think of her.
It depends on who you ask. Let me ask you, what do you think?
I think Nikki has not wavered at all from the agenda that she explained to me a few days before the strike began, and that was to end this strike as quickly as possible. (See "Media Mensch of the Year.")
Yeah, I would agree. Generally, because the AMPTP has been so bad about negotiating, we’ve benefited more, but you’re absolutely right. She wants her TV shows. And I get that. Variety and Hollywood Reporter and, to some degree, the LA Times seem to be in the pockets of the studios. During the last negotiating session, one of our members was going to the bathroom and he went by one of the AMPTP guys who was talking on the phone and was saying, “Yeah, we’ve got [name redacted] ready to write a very favorable piece for us.” So when you’ve got one of the main guys covering the strike for Variety working against you, you feel kind of ganged up upon. Nikki Finke, for me at least, though sometimes she takes positions I don’t agree with, at least has called them out on some of their bad behavior.
How much do the personal relationships between the WGA negotiators and the AMPTP really factor into the strike talks being at a standstill?
I’ve been in a lot of those negotiations and they’ve been surprisingly civil. You wouldn’t know it from reading the press coverage. I don’t like a lot of their tactics and I’m sure they don’t like a lot of ours. But Nick Counter’s not going to stop Les Moonves and Bob Iger and Peter Chernin from making a deal, if those guys want to make a deal. It’s just a matter of when will those CEOs tell Nick Counter, “Go ahead and make the best deal you can.” I don’t blame Nick Counter for what’s going on. You have to blame the top management. Maybe they need the cover for the DGA to try to make our strike look ineffective. The only thing that is stopping a deal from happening is (the network and studio chiefs) saying to Nick Counter, “Make a good deal but make a deal.” No one in the Writers' Guild is stopping a deal from happening.
What’s interesting is the AMPTP never puts anyone who’s actually been at these negotiations in front of the press. And the reason is it’s sort of like the White House with Scott McClellan, where they had McClellan lying but he didn’t know he was lying. How do you get the lie out there without getting someone to lie? That’s how you do it. You put people out to talk who haven’t participated in the negotiations. So they say that “talks broke down over side issues” -- they don’t know that’s not true. They say it because their superiors said it was true. None of the lawyers who were there would ever say that was true.
