Not enough in Iraq

President Bush stated in his fourth speech outlining his Iraq strategy that some politicians are hurting the morale of our troops in Iraq.

I believe the following have hurt the morale of our troops more than anything:

-- Not enough boots on the ground from the very beginning

-- Not enough body armor for the troops

-- Not enough protective equipment on their Humvees, etc.

I wonder how many American lives would have been saved, how many of our men and women who have been wounded — some maimed for life — would still be whole if Bush and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had been doing their jobs.

If this is good leadership, God help us.

Mary Kidwell
Kansas City

Comments

[irishguy]

Politics pretty much determines whether you fight a war or not fight in the first place.

[CRD]

"Politics should not be allowed to effect military decisions."

I wonder if there has ever been a conflict in recorded history where politics didn't impact military decisions.

"I still think all out war from the start would have resulted in less deaths."

I think that's nuts. But that's just me. I think not getting entangled in the Vietnamese civil war in the first place would've likely resulted in fewer deaths, if only because the war would've likely been over more quickly.

[irishguy]

We dropped more bombs on North Vietnam than we dropped on all of Europe and Japan during WW2. We had half a million men in Vietnam during the height of that war.

We were facing an enemy that was fighting a guerilla war, that came from anywhere, could have been anyone, and supplied itself through a system of tunnels and trails we could never eradicate. They would live on rat meat if they had to, and were more than willing to die for their cause.

The harder we hit them, the more determined they became to fight.

And we fought alongside a South Vietnamese Army that really wasn't that interested in fighting to protect whatever corrupt regime happened to be in power at the time.

No matter what we did, short of killing every man, woman and child in Southeast Asia, there was no way to "win" that war.

And what would we have "won"?

And here we are again.

[Ray Seay]

Sen. Kerry made a good case for his point of view. It was one sided as most advocacy speeches are.He criticized the communists one time.
In 1971 I was in combat near the border between North and South Viet Nam. If the war had been properly done 5 years earlier I would not have had to be there. I agree with him on mismanagement but not on his solution.. We should have used more force sooner and not let up.
In 1971 the most common comment I heard from soldiers was that we should do all necessary to win and if we were not going to do that, to get out.
My unit, the 101st Airborne Division,. was withdrawn at the end of 1971. Sen Kerry may have had something to do with that. At the time I wanted to stay. He and others probably influenced the latter part of the war. Politics should not be allowed to effect military decisions.
I think I now understand him better, he did make some good points but overall I still think all out war from the start would have resulted in less deaths. By 1971 it was too late to do this.

[CRD]

Thanks Ray. Let us know what you think.

[Ray Seay]

CRD;

I have to go to work. I will read your longer post tonight.
I can agree with the last one.
I will let all this go unless it is brought up again.
I think we set a record for posts on this one.

[CRD]

I also want to underscore how Kerry characterized My Lai below: as a "horrible aberration."

His point is not that such "horrible aberrations" as My Lai and other war crimes are the rule rather than the exceptions, but that those who set up the conditions that fostered such "horrible aberrations" should be held responsible, as a matter of justice.

[CRD]

"Sen Kerry saw none. Neither did I. How could this be day to day and with full knowledge of all??"

You seem to be misinterpreting his statement, Ray. As far as I can tell, no one, and certainly not Lt. Kerry, made the claim that EVERYONE who served in Vietnam engaged in atrocities tantamount to war crimes. What he argued was that atrocities were indeed committed, with the tacit or express approval of people at all levels of command, and he, on behalf of the veterans' organization, argued that Congress should ensure that those with the responsibility for running the war be held responsible for the fruits of their decisions.

I don't know what else to say, Ray -- at risk of repeating myself, as I read his testimony, Kerry clearly never makes the absurd claim that all who served in Vietnam engaged in war crimes. Just as clearly, he refers to documented testimony by his fellow veterans that war crimes did indeed take place, and he argues passionately that those who were responsible for setting up the conditions that led to the atrocities that were committed in Vietnam should be held accountable.

Witness this exchange between Lt. Kerry and Sen. Pell, towards the end of the testimony transcript, regarding Lt. William Calley, the only individual out of 26 charged in connection with the My Lai massacre to be convicted:
____________________

Mr. Kerry: "My feeling, Senator, on Lieutenant Calley is what he did quite obviously was a horrible, horrible, horrible thing and I have no bone to pick with the fact that he was prosecuted. But I think that in this question you have to separate guilt from responsibility, and I think clearly the responsibility for what has happened there lies elsewhere.

I think it lies with the men who designed free fire zones. I think it lies with the men who encourage body counts. I think it lies in large part with this country, which allows a young child before he reaches the age of 14 to see 12,500 deaths on television, which glorifies the John Wayne syndrome, which puts out fighting man comic books on the stands, which allows us in training to do calisthenics to four counts, on the fourth count of which we stand up and shout "kill" in unison, which has posters in barracks in this country with a crucified Vietnamese, blood on him, and underneath it says "kill the gook," and I think that clearly the responsibility for all of this is what has produced this horrible aberration.

Now, I think if you are going to try Lieutenant Calley then you must at the same time, if this country is going to demand respect for the law, you must at the same time try all those other people who have responsibility, and any aversion that we may have to the verdict as veterans is not to say that Calley should be freed, not to say that he is innocent, but to say that you can't just take him alone, and that would be my response to that."

Senator Pell: "I agree with you. The guilt is shared by many, many, many of us, including the leaders of the get-out-now school. But in this regard if we had not tried him, I think we would be much more criticized and should be criticized. I would think the same fate would probably befall him as befell either Sergeant or Lieutenant Schwarz of West Virginia who was tried for life for the same offense and is out on a 9 months commuted sentence. By the same token I would hope the quality of mercy would be exercised in this regard for a young man who was not equipped for the job and ran amuck. But I think public opinion should think this through. We who have taken this position find ourselves very much in the minority."

Mr. Kerry: "I understand that, Senator, but I think it is a very difficult thing for the public to think through faced with the facts. The fact that 18 other people indicted for the very same crime were freed and the fact among those were general and colonels. I mean this simply is not justice. That is all. It is just not justice."
_______________
above from: http://www.nationalreview.com/document/kerry200404231047.asp

for more on My Lai massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

[Ray Seay]

CRD
And I stand by WHAT I SAID ONLY.

“war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command..”..
"No the lie here is your claim that you served there and saw nothing."

Sen Kerry saw none. Neither did I. How could this be day to day and with full knowledge of all??
Other than this one nstatement I do not challenge him. I SAID HIS WAR SERVICE WAS HONORABLE AND HEROIC. How am mI buying int any smears,?

[CRD]

"Irishguy ... implicated all veterans as criminals by saying that if you served there you had to commit or see war crimes."

Kerry did not say that the war crimes that were committed in Vietnam were policy, but that they resulted from our elected officials' policy choices.

Kerry testified before Congress in his position as a spokesperson for a veterans' group, condemning the policies that led to the conditions that spawned such atrocities.

I stand by my earlier contention, and wholeheartedly agree with Irishguy's take on Kerry's testimony before Congress. Kerry was there, representing a veterans' group, demanding, on behalf of his fellow veterans, that our politicians be held accountable for the fruits of their policies.

That Swift Boat garbage, is simply that: garbage. Of course, anyone's perfectly free to repeat that passel of lies and misrepresentations, but it definitely says something about your character if you'd rather buy into a smear campaign than look at what Kerry actually said and did.

http://www.nationalreview.com/document/kerry200404231047.asp

[Ray Seay]

CRD;
“war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command..”..
KERRY (videotape, 1971):” I personally didn't see personal atrocities in the sense that I saw somebody cut a head off or something like that. “

No the lie here is your claim that you served there and saw nothing.
No, what I am saying, Ray, is that you got no closer to Vietnam than Chillicothe.
Posted by: irishguy | Dec 24,

The first statement is what hurts, I know that is not true. Even by Sen Kerry’s second statement says it is not true. Neither he nor I saw such crimes. That some happened is true. That they were policy and done daily with full knowledge of all is not true. I read the whole statement, This one part I challenge.

Irishguy libeled me with his statement and implicated all veterans as criminals by saying that if you served there you had to commit or see war crimes.
Please point out the smear in what I said and state if you buy into irishguy;s smear campaign.

[CRD]

Irishguy said:

"Kerry was not smearing the soldiers who did this in his testimony. He was defending them. Quite eloquently, and quite passionately."

Again, I wholeheartedly agree with Irishguy's take on Kerry's testimony before Congress. Kerry was there, representing a veterans' group, demanding, on behalf of his fellow veterans, that our politicians be held accountable for the fruits of their policies.

That Swift Boat garbage, is simply that: garbage. Of course, anyone's perfectly free to repeat that passel of lies and misrepresentations, but it definitely says something about your character if you'd rather buy into a smear campaign than look at what Kerry actually said and did.

[jack]

This has degenerated so far into personal attacks and name calling that I just flat refuse to participate.

[Ray Seay]

No, what I am saying, Ray, is that you got no closer to Vietnam than Chillicothe.
Posted by: irishguy | Dec 26, 2005 3:26:37 PM
Tour choice: PUT UP $10,000 ON THIS OR YOU ARE THE LOWEST SCUM ON EARTH.
Yhis will follow anything you post until you do.

[irishguy]

You are slipping deeper and deeper into incoherence, Ray.

[Ray Seay]

JD

"even though you may not have seen them, and Kerry didn't see them, "

No the lie here is your claim that you served there and saw nothing.
Posted by: irishguy | Dec 24,

I nevewr said things did not happen. He is saying Kerry and I lied about this. Please think on this " the liee is you served there and saw nothing. "
This is a smear. that ALL who served saw or committed war crimes.

[irishguy]

No, what I am saying, Ray, is that you got no closer to Vietnam than Chillicothe.

The Internet is full of braggarts who make ridiculous claims about themselves in order to win arguments. A real veteran of real combat wouldn't do that.

[Ray Seay]

CRD;

I APOLOGIZE FOR THE TIME MISTAKE.

I DO STILL ASK, IN VIEW OF IRISHGUY'S POST DO YOU STILL SAY HE IS TELLING IT LIKE IT IS?

[Ray Seay]

JD;

"Lying about "everyday atrocities as policy is a lie."
No the lie here is your claim that you served there and saw nothing.
Posted by: irishguy | Dec 24,

Make it personal. How would like it if that------- said YOU either lied about serving in !raq or lied in sayin you saw no war crimes,

What he said was that if I served in Viet Nam I HAD to see war crimes.

[Ray Seay]

Put up $10,000 on it or admit you are full if ----.

That leads me to suspect that your claim of service in Vietnam is just another one.

Posted by: irishguy | Dec 26, 2005 12:39:35 PM

[irishguy]

"I do not want and would not accept your apology."

And none will be forthcoming, Ray.

You have made outlandish claims about yourself before (154 IQ for starters) to add weight to arguments than can't stand on their own merits.

That leads me to suspect that your claim of service in Vietnam is just another one.

[irishguy]

Thank you, Jim.

There has never been a war fought in human history in which atrocities were not committed by both sides.

In the U.S., our response has always been, "Mistakes happen" or in cases like My Lai or Abu Gharib, to round up a few low-level soldiers, prosecute them, and call the incident "isolated."

War is an ugly, ugly business which we should avoid until it is absolutely necessary.

This nation has yet to be given the reason it was absolutely necessary to invade Iraq.

[Jim Dent]

Calm down Ray, you don't need to blow a gasket on christmas day, or any other day, for that matter. Step back and take a deep breath.....
I'm not being a smart A**, I mean it. Don't let your self get all spooled up over an argument. You make better arguments when you are calm.

What Irish is saying is that atrocities did happen in Viet Nam(and all wars for that matter)and that even though you may not have seen them, and Kerry didn't see them, he talked to soldiers that did see and engage in them. They did happen. I have a friend who served in Viet Nam who did commit atrocities. It haunts him even now.
Irish is no more trying to "smear" honorable men that you served with than Kerry was.
That is the whole point. WAY to much was made of this part of his speech, and not enough was made of the fact that they (the veteran protesters) had lost faith in Americas leadership, and wanted the war to end. Nothing more, nothing less....

[Ray Seay]

Irishguy;

Do you say Sen Kerry committed or covered up war crimes??
Do you say Sen Kerrey committed or covered up war crimes??
Do you say Colin Powell committed or covered up war crimes??
Do you say Al Gore committed or covered up war crimes??
Do you say Sen Cleland committed or covered up war crimes??
Do you say Rep Murtha committed or covered up war crimes??
Do you say Sen Hagel committed or covered up war crimes??
Do you say Ray Seay only committed or covered up war crimes??
Is your despicable smear only against all Viet Nam veterans or did you intend to smear all veterans.??
Do you say Jim Dent committed or covered up war crimes??
Do you say Engineer committed or covered up war crimes??
Do you say all men who served in Iraq committed or covered up war crimes??
Do you say all those fighting and dying in Iraq now committed or covered up war crimes??
Do you say every combat veteran committed or covered up war crimes??

KERRY (videotape, 1971): I personally didn't see personal atrocities in the sense that I saw somebody cut a head off or something like that.

".. I was there 3 years. I SAW NOT ONE SUCH INCIDENT. I was in combat 2 of those years."
Posted by: Ray Seay | Dec 24, 2005 12:54:10 AM

"Lying about "everyday atrocities as policy is a lie."
No the lie here is your claim that you served there and saw nothing.
Posted by: irishguy | Dec 24, 2005 9:52:48 AM

Irishguy;

Are you really that despicable or are deluded by your extreme partisan politics?
I do not care what you say about me. I consider where your head is and what you are talking out of. I WILL NOT LET YOU SMEAR honorable men I saw fight and die in combat. I do not want and would not accept your apology. You owe every other veteran an apology if you have any human values left.

[Ray Seay]

KERRY (videotape, 1971): I personally didn't see personal atrocities in the sense that I saw somebody cut a head off or something like that.

"Lying about "everyday atrocities as policy is a lie."
No the lie here is your claim that you served there and saw nothing.
Posted by: irishguy | Dec 24,
, Ray. Irishguy is telling it like it is.
Posted by: CRD | Dec 24, 2005 9:41:48 AM

CRD;
I assume you overlooked this. You have one chance to condemn this or confirm you still support that-------.
The ---- is going to hit the fan big time tomorrow.