Anti-war banner

Bravo to that brave young man for unfurling the anti-war banner at Johnson County Community College. We are going to see more and more of this as anti-war voices are drowned out by those profiting greatly from this war.

And believe me, our Congress is profiting too, as donations from the war machine flow to fill their campaign coffers.

I ask Rep. Dennis Moore and Sen. Pat Roberts: How can you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?

Corva Murphy
Kansas City

Comments

[CRD]

On comparisons to Vietnam:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/22/christman.iraq.vietnam/index.html

[CRD]

Moving the goalposts:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/22/iraq.democracy/index.html

[Kate]

The milbloggers provide another point of view based on information from others who are on the ground, and from discussions with Generals who are on the ground, and based on their own knowledge of counter-insurgency.

If you had read Grim’s commentary, you would have noticed that shortly after the opening he states, “I do not intend to challenge their understanding of the facts on the ground, as they are based on direct observation. I assume the truth of every fact they report. What I wish to challenge is their conclusions about how events will, they seem to say "must," develop.”

And from the second link, “I think they did an excellent job of pointing out the extreme difficulties faced in fighting an insurgency”.

I think that if a person is interested in reading more than one viewpoint, these are worth the time.

[PoliticalDespot]

"Grim at Blackfive has an interesting (and respectful) rebuttal." and "And here is another rebuttal, but Grim’s column seems a little more thoughtful."

Kate - do rebuttals like the ones you provided links to automatically negate the insightful concerns that others who have been in the middle of this debacle have also provided?

[Kate]

CRD, I have read the article you reference. Grim at Blackfive has an interesting (and respectful) rebuttal. It’s worth reading if you have time. Some of the comments at the end are pretty good, too. http://www.blackfive.net/main/2007/08/coin-on-the-war.html#more And here is another rebuttal, but Grim’s column seems a little more thoughtful. http://www.blackfive.net/main/2007/08/82nd-abn-ncos-i.html

[CRD]

Engineer says:

"Your insight is amazing. You know more about the situation than the troops on the ground actually dealing with the situation."

Let's see what the troops on the ground have to say:

"The claim that we are increasingly in control of the battlefields in Iraq is an assessment arrived at through a flawed, American-centered framework. Yes, we are militarily superior, but our successes are offset by failures elsewhere. What soldiers call the “battle space” remains the same, with changes only at the margins. It is crowded with actors who do not fit neatly into boxes: Sunni extremists, Al Qaeda terrorists, Shiite militiamen, criminals and armed tribes. This situation is made more complex by the questionable loyalties and Janus-faced role of the Iraqi police and Iraqi Army, which have been trained and armed at United States taxpayers’ expense.

A few nights ago, for example, we witnessed the death of one American soldier and the critical wounding of two others when a lethal armor-piercing explosive was detonated between an Iraqi Army checkpoint and a police one. Local Iraqis readily testified to American investigators that Iraqi police and Army officers escorted the triggermen and helped plant the bomb. These civilians highlighted their own predicament: had they informed the Americans of the bomb before the incident, the Iraqi Army, the police or the local Shiite militia would have killed their families.

As many grunts will tell you, this is a near-routine event. Reports that a majority of Iraqi Army commanders are now reliable partners can be considered only misleading rhetoric. The truth is that battalion commanders, even if well meaning, have little to no influence over the thousands of obstinate men under them, in an incoherent chain of command, who are really loyal only to their militias."

"Political reconciliation in Iraq will occur, but not at our insistence or in ways that meet our benchmarks. It will happen on Iraqi terms when the reality on the battlefield is congruent with that in the political sphere. There will be no magnanimous solutions that please every party the way we expect, and there will be winners and losers. The choice we have left is to decide which side we will take. Trying to please every party in the conflict — as we do now — will only ensure we are hated by all in the long run."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/opinion/19jayamaha.html?ex=1188360000&en=7a86848eddc5f4ff&ei=5070

Go ahead, read the whole article.

Authors:

Buddhika Jayamaha is an Army specialist. Wesley D. Smith is a sergeant. Jeremy Roebuck is a sergeant. Omar Mora is a sergeant. Edward Sandmeier is a sergeant. Yance T. Gray is a staff sergeant. Jeremy A. Murphy is a staff sergeant.

[CRD]

"keep Iran in check."

? What does he mean by this, anyhow? How is "keeping Iran in check" defined?

[solomon]

and as to your statement "there has been a nation where iran is geographically located" as with all regions the bloodlines have changed over the years. Iran is almost unique in this worlds history. there was never a time that the culture, education , the sciences and commerce did not dominate or rival for dominance in that part of the world, and for a period over the entire world. that is until they were subjagated by the western military apparatus after WWI (to be fair the soviets were pushing from the other side) their's was never a stone age culture in recorded history, as so much of the middle east is relegated to.

[solomon]

c'mon engineer, predatory nation? in the past they had a vision of empire, or manifest destiny as we called it as we expanded. how, in your opinion do others have faults where we have virtue. the modern nation of iran has never attempted to conquer their region. there was a war with iraq but that was not a prelim to empire building, it was ,excuse the expression, a pissing match. and remember the current government of iran is hostile to US because we backed a horribly brutal police state under the shah, even after the rest of the world spoke out against his regime. do you recall the expression "shah mot". we stood by the SAVAK while they muredered iranians of all ages and social standing.

[Engineer]

Solomon
Yes there has been a Nation where Iran is geographically located for a very long time. At times in its history it has been a very predatory Nation. You did thalk about "300". At the present, I believe Iran has aspiratioons to take over the entire Mid East. I don't believe this would be to anyone's best interest except Iran's and I beliee we would be extremely to allow it. As to world empire, it does seem that we have already reached the point where if anything is to be done we are the ones who have to do it. As to our right to exist, as I have said before, that depends on us maintaining our strength, our power and our will.

[solomon]

keep Iran in check. what exactly is it that you want to keep in check? it goes to a perception that the US has some right to dictate policy to the world. iran has existed as a nation for over 2000 years. have they not earned a right to have a say in their own backyard, even if its not what western governments and the oil companies want to hear.

i know you believe we have some inalienable right to this country, and as americans we all do. does that right to decide whats best extend globally? have you decided that we should govern the world? you'll say no, but in reality thats what your calling for.

[Engineer]

Solomon
Spilt milk or not, we are where we are and action of one sort or another must be taken. I think our presence in Iraq will be necessary to keep Iran in check. I don't think we will make any attempt to change the ethos of the society.

[BuddyT]

gal dang CRuD, what a sight you are!!

Hair coming out in clumps, coffee cups broken, ciggie poo butts deep kneep in ash trays.....

YOU and IGGY need some cash there in school till MOM & DAD tide you over, hey, let us know....we can pitch in...

[CRD]

"If you think it was a mistake to remove a state sponsor of terrorism from power and prevent him from acquire nuclear weapons,"

False assumption there.

Anyone see it? Huh? Huh? ;-)

Whatta moonbat Armi is.

[solomon]

as far as what should be done, i've used the expression that "you can't unspill a glass of milk". As defeatist as this must sound, at this point no one has a solution.

[solomon]

engineer, i agree with you that we will have a major presence it the middle east for years. i don't agree that it will be beneficial to the whole world for us to be there. we will never be viewed as anything but an occupying force, dictating to a people who we have no cultural or religious ties to. if your idea of us being a positive thing for the area (and i'm careful not to say that this is your position) is subjagating an area until they accept our ideals i believe you are terribly misguided.

[solomon]

engineer, i agree with you that we will have a major presence it the middle east for years. i don't agree that it will be beneficial to the whole world for us to be there. we will never be viewed as anything but an occupying force, dictating to a people who we have no cultural or religious ties to. if your idea of us being a positive thing for the area (and i'm careful not to say that this is your position) is subjagating an area until they accept our ideals i believe you are terribly misguided.

[Arminius]

"I ask Rep. Dennis Moore and Sen. Pat Roberts: How can you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

You know, Corva, that was a dumb question when John Kerry asked it three decades ago.

If you think it was a mistake to remove a state sponsor of terrorism from power and prevent him from acquire nuclear weapons, I have to wonder how you had enough brainpower to write an LTE.

[CRD]

"There is no big mystery about what would constitute a "stable Iraq" That would be an Iraq capable of governing itself."

You ever hear the tale about the mice who decided the best way to deal with their cat problem was by putting a bell around its neck?

Brilliant idea, but little problem with the whole execution of the concept.

[Engineer]

Solomon
So, we disagree. I think a stable Iraq is possible. I also think that we will have a significant presence in Iraq for years to come. IMO, this will be benefiial to everyone, the USA, the entire Mid-East and the world. But you disn't really say what you think should be done.

[solomon]

that should have said "there is no Iraq considered capable of governing itself.....

[solomon]

engineer, as i look at the candidates on both sides and see how they dance around the issue of Iraq, our best chance would be a gravel vs paul face off next november. of course that will never happen. they seem to be the only ones who don't deny we're in a soup of our own making.

and in my hunble opinion there is no Iraq capable of governing itself without total acceptance of US policies and ( the whatchamacallit in the punchbowl) recognizibg Isreals right to exist. (last piece of the occupation puzzle that i believe has to be placed)

this is a very long game with no end in sight

[Engineer]

CRD
Your insight is amazing. You know more about the situation than the troops on the ground actually dealing with the situation. Last night on C-Span they were very positive.

Solomon
There is no big mystery about what would constitute a "stable Iraq" That would be an Iraq capable of governing itself. I've expressed this quite a fwew times on this blog. IMO, if we pulled out we would destabilize the entirre Mid-East. Fortunately, I have the feeling that most of the Democratic presidential candidates understand this with a possible exception.
But you seem to have positive views, what is your solution?

[solomon]

don't want to put words in his mouth , i don't think victory would spell a stable Iraq. there is no victory foreseeable in Iraq.

I'm asking what he means by stable iraq.

[CRD]

Asking him to define victory, eh?