Faith and violence

In the Rev. Drew A. Newman’s letter (8/28) on the Reformation and Christianity, he states that Christianity does not teach violence as an acceptable means of furthering the growth of the church, but that the same can’t be said of Islam.

The reverend show how little he knows about true Islam.

True Islam does not advocate violence. This, however, falls on deaf ears too many times.

If you wish to believe that true Islam advocates violence to further the religion, then by the same measure, the same can be said about the Christian Church. I point to the Crusades, the Inquisition and the forcible conversion of the Native Americans as a few examples of the Christian Church using violence to further its growth.

Please stop painting all of Islam with the same brushstrokes as those of the extremists. Christians don’t like it and neither do Muslims.

Shelly Brown
Liberty

It sounds like the Rev. Drew Newman, pastor of a Lutheran church in Kearney, has spent more time studying theology than the historical context of his own denomination.

Early Lutherans, as well as several other Protestant denominations, persecuted those who disagreed with them, convinced that they were the only recipients of divine revelation.

Newman was criticizing a recent column by Diana Muir in which she asserted that the conviction that one’s religion has the word direct from God can empower individuals to kill in his name. This is well illustrated by more than 100 years of religious wars in Europe following the Reformation, and it is the reason that our Founding Fathers were determined to separate religion and the state.

Jeanette B. Welch
Warrensburg

Comments

[solomon]

zenozac,

To me your faith is admirable. If you actually live what you believe you should be comfortable when your time comes.

[zenozac]

First of all I have taken much abuse because of my beliefs on this website. You speak reasonably and fairly to me, and do seem to tread lightly.

Ok on Hitler, I thought you were concurring with devin on that. And fair enough about Christian germany and many more not stepping up there. The bible says, Jesus said, the way to heaven is norrow, the way to hell is wide. He also said at the end of times, when He calls people to their judgement, many will say Lord, Lord did we not do this or that in your name?" And he says he will say to many, "depart from me I never KNEW you" People who went to church, people who did good deeds will be in this group. Because of many of the things you have spoken of. jesus used the word hypocrite many many times to speak to people who used God name but did not do as He commands. He is not looking for good people, but rather he is looking for obedient people to His words.
He tells us to love our neighbors, but I won't sit down with a person of a different race?! PROBLEM! And all those other scenarios you have described. If I am a part of those and think going to church and calling myself a christian means I am OK, I have got a problem with God!

And that Solomon is not my opinion, it is clearly stated in hundreds of places in the bible. So if I claim to be a Christian, but withhold love fromk someone based on something as superficial as race or wahtever i have a problem.

I have often tried to speak with others on here about my speaking out against sin. Of course I get slammed no matter what. But I believe that if you die and are in an unrepented state of sins you practice. (I do not mean some minor slip up) But are living a life in disregard of God's clear word. That you will go to hell. it does not matter what sin it is according to God, you go to hell. Those are His words, not mine.
So if I believe that but never tell you or others what kind of inhuman thing would that make me. You (or others) may very well think I am crazy, so be it. But i have to speak up. Can you imagine getting to heaven to see the people you never spoke to going to hell. (that is just a thought in my head, not necessarily scripture). But I have no intention of wanting a mandate put on people. You as I are free to believe and act within the GOV's. laws how we wish.

[solomon]

zenozac,

Sounds like you have a nice church.

You sound like a person of faith so I want to tread lightly here. No way all Christians see their faith the same, but they still consider themselves Christians. To them it doesn't matter what you think. There are people on this earth who will not sit down to eat with a member of another race, so is it really that much of a stretch to say there are Christians who only will sit down and worship under the same terms?

[solomon]

zenozac,

It was actually devin who took the position to include Hitler as a Christian. I'd be inclined to agree with you that Hitler probably renounced Christianity in favor of a belief in Mysticism and perhaps as you say Satan. That is not true though of most of the people in his government and in the nation of Germany who were active participants. It would be niave of us to think that the millions of Germans who supported Hitler and his dreams for Germany renounced their Christian faith. No doubt tens of thousands of Germans despised Hitlers policies, but we are talking about a population of millions.

The point about the African is that not all churches invite everyone. I did not say there would be white Christians or black Christians who would not want them there. That does not make a difference to me in this discussion.

[zenozac]

If you have a child who does wrong you still have to include them in your family, although you don't have to accept what they've done.
Posted by: solomon | Sep 4, 2007 12:44:59 PM

Off topic, I have to go out and log back in fairly often. I have learned to copy my post before sending.

I only include in my family people through blood or marriage. (atleast I think that covers it) No matter how much someone may look like me if they do not fit those criteria they are not my family.

The same applies for Christianity, only of course a different set of criteria.

We have a rather large group of african americans in our church, considering we are out near Desoto. Maybe 25% or so. Are you saying there are people who won't go to a church because of them? I am not sure exactly what you are getting at. But if they will not because of that they are running into serious jepardy with God. God sees no black and white or greek or jew.
He sees people whom we are commanded to love as we do ourselves.
For a couple of years i went to an all black church except for my family and had an Africans young lady named Chika living with us. She continued to go after we left the area to that church and told us later she faced much discrimination because of her living with white people. Sin does not go away because we are going to church. But we are supposed to oppose it in our own lives whenever we can.
Again to the original point Hitler was not a person who had minor differences with the gospel as the KKK are not people with minor differences to the teachings of Christ. If you want to have a discussion in church about pre tribulation or post tribulation second coming of christ. Or what day church should be on FINE etc.., go for it.
But again killing, cheating, genecide which is what Hitler was about, not a chance. i do not care what he may have claimed.

And as for your assertion the people of the christian nation of Germany did nothing is to ignore the facts of history. There was an underground network of people many christian who lost their lives trying to save the Jews from Hitler.

[solomon]

off topic, but I've been locking up over here with an error message that says runtime error and asks me if I want to debug. That only happens on this site in trying to go back and forth reading comments. Do you have any experience with that?

[solomon]

Zenozac,

If you have a child who does wrong you still have to include them in your family, although you don't have to accept what they've done.

[solomon]

zenozac,

Not trying to win an argument, none exists.

In no way would I say you have to accept all Christians as being Christian. At the same time forgiveness and judgement does not come from ones fellow man in matters of religion. i don't know if there are any Africans in your church( I am using Africans because Christianity is huge there) but there are American Christians who would never go into your church because of that. Now you or I may not agree that they are Christian, but they call themselves Christian nonetheless. That is an extreme example but think of all the little differences in the way people believe and worship.

[zenozac]

BTW it is not that hard to find believers who totally agree about Christ and Him crucified. Or about the need for obedience to his word.

[zenozac]

First let's be clear here. What i think about someone elses actions is not the problem.
But there are some extremely clear sets of boundaries put forth by the word of God. I don't know how to say this in a nicer way, so forgive the harshness of this sentence. But it is disingenuos to say I or a peaceful muslim must accept as part of our faiths someone who perverts it. It seems as if you are making a judgement which is not yours to make, to have an upper hand in an argument. By this claim you can say, see they are of your faith and have done these atrocities! The fruits (works) of the spirit of God are clearly pointed out over and over. And it clearly states anyone not doing these types of things are not of the faith. I do not see murder, lynching, stealing, and general mayhem listed amoung those fruits. As a matter of Fact, they are listed amoung the fruits of how you tell ceertain people are not of the faith of Christ.
If I claim to be the NBA star must they accept me in their ranks? Of course not.

And we are not talking picky little details here Solomon. You are talking about people who completely ignore the scriptures yet want to be associated with a particular religion.
Particularily Christianity.(well here in america anyway) I wonder why that is?

[solomon]

zenozac,

I think it is natural that we all have faults. That includes people of all races and religions. When someone does the things I mentioned I think we still have to include them as Christians, just like the Muslims who are not radical jihadists have to still include terrorists in their religion. Just as you(not you personally) don't agree with what your co-religionist is warping your faith into they probably have the same feelings towards the way you represent.

Religion is a very personal thing, difficult to totally agree with someone even if you are next to them in a church or mosque.

[zenozac]

"All ideologies are false that breed hate and violence " Devin did actually say one thing I would agree with.

[zenozac]

And as for muslims I do not think most believe killing is ok. They should do more to stand up to these people, but that is easier said than done. And might in many countries be a death sentence for them.

[zenozac]

Excuse me but if someone is brought up in a "christian upbringing' that doea make them a christian. Devin if it makes you feel better to include Hitler as a christian, then go for it. Your christian bias is well documented on these pages. Solomon you seem like some one who is actually interested in discussing rather than attacking.
It is refreshing. America is a quote christian nation, but with 40 million abortions, 50 -60% divorce rate, and homosexuals in ministry and the church following the same rates in all these catagories, I would dispute that. You do not become a christian by calling yourself one or by going to church. Jesus said to abide in him. You abide in him by obediance to his word. Your belief that he is GOD and died on the cross for our sins. We acknowledge that and then become obediant to him. We do slip up at times, but ask forgiveness and go on. NO ONE going around hurting people is a christian. At least not according to Christ.
Hers my analogy for you. I tell you now I am and NBA star center. Nevermind I am a 51 year old, short, white guy, who can't dribble, dunk or shoot. I play in the NBA. Now does that make it so? Of course not! Many people know there is a god and want to be a part of his team. But do not want to do what he says. Try that in the army, much less with God.
As for the annomosity for the Jews in Germany, there was. Hitler came to power and pitted a small wealthy minority against the masses. The depression was here and people were starving. They wanted someone to save them. It is a bad excuse and easy to see the wrong now. But I bet most of the people had no idea how crazy Hitler was and what he had in mind for the Jews. He was just another pawn of satan trying to wipe out the Jewish race for thousands of years.
He was into astrology and mediums and other sorts of witchcraft. God has made it clear you cannot serve 2 masters. Hitler only served 1 and that was satan.
And as for your question, no we are not to inclkude all those hate filled people in Christiandom. Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. The people trying to stop iontegration and lynching blacks may have indeed come from a christian upbringing but they were far off the mark. But I cannot stop or be responsible for hateful people using christ's name. It is a shame but they will reap a just reward in the end if they never truly repented of their actions(sins).

[solomon]

Zenozac,

i erred, that riot in St Louis was actually 1917, not the 20s.

[solomon]

well spoken devin.

[devin]

I tried to post this yesterday but for some reason it didn't show up...I doubt it was some nefarious conspiracy on the part of the Star as some seem to think, however ;-)

Anyway, the point I want to make is any ideology is dangerous when people believe it enough to kill for it. You hardly have to go back 400 years for examples of Christians committing atrocities. The Protestant/Catholic battles in Ireland, genocide in Bosnia, and, yes, Germany during WWII are all examples of awful atrocities committed by self-proclaimed Christians. It's not fair to exclude Hitler from the Christian category just because you don't agree with his entire theology and all his practices. He knew the Bible, he acknowledged Christ as his inspiration, in all fairness he must be categorized as a Christian. Of course, he also perverted what most would consider the real messages of Christianity, but Al-Qaida does the exact same thing. Unfortunately, too many people are willing to condemn Islam for the actions of the twisted few while forgiving Christianity countless transgressions of equal or greater magnitude. The problem with any ideology (Islam, Christianity, Communism, etc.) is seldom the actual message, but the twisted individuals who use the ideology as justification for horrific actions.

BTW, here in the modern-day US we have people who've killed abortion doctors, gays, etc. in the name of Christianity. I think the main difference between those groups here and al-Qaida is the fact that al-Qaida received training, weapons, and tons of funding from the US. Jihadist elementary schools continue to be funded by the oil profits of our "ally" Saudi Arabia. If the most militant Christians in America were given the resources of al-Qaida, I'm sure they would create just as much terror as the twisted militant Muslims.

All ideologies are false that breed hate and violence.

[solomon]

Zenozac,

You got me thinking of something. The rioters in LA after the OJ trial, the rioters in ST Louis in the 1920s where it is documented whites roasted blacks in bonfires, The Spanish who conquered and enslaved the Carib natives, the people standing outside of schools in the 1950s and 1970s screaming obscenities because of intergration all came from Christian upbringings. Aren't we supposed to include them in the rest of us Christians?

[solomon]

Absoluty no ax to grnd against Christians Zenozac. My admiration and respect to every person on earth who is true of heart in their beliefs, regardless of their religion. Learned all of that in a very good Christian upbringing. I just don't believe that Christians are always right and there a countless documented instance of Christian bias and acts of violence against others based on race or religious superiority.

I do not accept your assertion though that the majority of Germans did not support Hitler and his devestation of the Jews in Europe in The 1930s and 40s. Of course there were some people who did not follow him. There will always good people but the undeniable fact is that anti-Jewish bias was a rampant constant theme in Europe for cennturies and it culminated in the actions by Germany.

Zenozac, one of the constant themes in my posts are that I do not take judgemental positions or dislike anyone, for race, religion or political viewpoint. I notice that people who feel strongly towards any of those things try and assign me to the opposition when I state a fact that goes against their beliefs.

[zenozac]

one other thing Buddy, you don't have to go 400 years to point fingers at Christians, it was the Christain nation of Germany that stood by while their gov't pursued whats known as the holocaust.

Posted by: solomon | Sep 2, 2007 11:33:44 AM

Solomon, nice try, but there were tens of thousands of christians who stood up to Hitler and took jews into their homes. There were also more than a million christians killed by Hitler. Many in the same concentratrion camps. Let's see Hitler had the military and the people had what to stop him? Nothing, they had a very effective gun control program in Germany at that time. Let's not forget it was a christian nation that came to the peoples aid and freed the people from the concentration camps. Hitler was himself not a christian. he worshipped satan through astrology.
I am sorry you have some axe to grind against christians, but you are way off base. It seems as if from your writings you have been hurt by someone who was a christian and maybe that is affecting you. I will bet if you think about it you can remember plenty of times being hurt by non christians also. If it was a woman do you hate all women or a man do you hate all men?