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May 20, 2008

Archbishop’s rebuke of Sebelius

Barbara Shelly’s column titled, “Archbishop seeks improper church-state mix” (5/16, Opinion) is an example of bias interfering with logic. Obviously, Shelly holds a “pro-choice” personal conviction, and Archbishop Joseph Naumann is “pro-life” due to his Roman Catholic faith. Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius is both Roman Catholic and “pro-choice,” which Naumann is simply pointing out as inconsistent. Further, he is assuming the responsibility as a church leader by pointing out the contradiction in Sebelius’ choice.

The logical fallacy in the column is that Sebelius is allowed her convictions while Naumann is not. It is not the archbishop that has created an “uncomfortable intersection,” but the governor. The church official is not mandating how Sebelius must behave as governor, rather how she should behave as a Roman Catholic. Sebelius is free to associate with organizations more consistent with her personal convictions.

Ms. Shelly’s conclusion that Sebelius’ contradictory choices are more ethical than Archbishop Naumann’s consistent convictions is evidence of bias overriding logic.

Gregg Motley
Overland Park

Kathleen Sebelius, the governor of the state of Kansas who represents our total population, has chosen to follow her conscience. According to Vatican II, she has that right within the church. Equally, as has been explained, she has that same right in legislation. What is it about following one’s conscience that the archbishop does not understand?

Archbishop Naumann, although he would like to govern the state of Kansas, does not. He is an appointed official in a church of his own expression. He reports to the Pope and not to us, the people. As a citizen of Kansas, he must abide by both federal and state laws. In Kansas, the Roman Catholic Church adds up to a very small part of our total population, and many of them clearly understand Sebelius’ position.

Naumann’s arrogant, public attempt to shame her is typical. If he is going to tell us how to vote, his tax-exempt status should be revoked.

He no doubt can try to “buy” a new governor, but I believe that the citizens of Kansas are too smart to elect a puppet.

Kay Goodnow
Lenexa

As a Catholic, Gov. Sebelius should know that reception of Communion in the state of serious sin is a sacrilege. Those who procure or promote abortion are perceived as being in conflict with Christ and his church, and therefore should not receive Communion.

Archbishop Naumann counseled her privately, but the governor chose to show her disdain of the archbishop and her disrespect of the Blessed Sacrament by receiving Communion anyway.

The governor has made her choice and taken her stand, and I pray for her. Archbishop Naumann has preformed his job admirably as teacher and shepherd of our local church. I applaud his defense of the unborn and, most important, his defense of the Sacrament which most Catholics hold very dear.

Florence Long
Shawnee

Kathleen Sebelius may have been raised as a Catholic, but she chose to be a controversial governor. By the bills she signs and the political donations that she accepts, Gov. Sebelius puts herself at the intersection where Catholic and politician are mutually exclusive.

Archbishop Naumann was right to respectfully respond to the governor publicly in order to differentiate her abortion-rights position from the sanctity-of-life position of the Catholic Church.

If Archbishop Naumann remains silent, he holds Gov. Sebelius and the rest of his flock to very different standards of conduct and morality.

Kathleen A. Sexton
Lenexa

Comments

YourBSSucks

Marctnts & KC_LopSided…..

You find some/all of comments to be derogatory and inflammatory and feel I'm mean sprited. It's nice to have an opinion and I surmise that you will follow the same protocol of only posting comments that will brighten everyone's day when they read your thoughts. After all, a blog is only for holding hands around the campfire singing Kumbaya not for actually posting opinions for open discussion.

Marctnts

YourBSSucks,

If you can honestly say you find nothing insulting or derogatory about comments like "...by the holy ring they've put in your nose..." then I don't think there is anything more to discuss.

For future reference, it IS possible to have resonable debate without resorting to the the type of inflammatory comments that do nothing but cheapen your argument.

Have a nice evening.

kcstar_is_one_sided

Don't like Catholics much huh BS. Also, your pompous and mean spirited. I understand we all have our days, but I think midol is in order.

YourBSSucks

Marctnts - "I hope this reminder helps you understand why I founjd your comments insulting and deragatory."

And of those comments that you find insulting and derogatory, which do you not find to be at least somewhat truthful? Don’t forget to take your junior high school history into account when you delve into the Catholic church's dark past to provide your answer.

Marctnts

YourBSSucks,

I NEVER suggested that someone had to follow the catholic church's domgma in order to enter the pearly gates. What I did suggest is that it is the perogative of the catholic church to determine what is required of their members, and it is also their perogative to exclude those who don't live by theose requirements. If Sebelius feels her first responsibility is to her political position and that she should not advance her religious beliefs while operating in that capacity (which I completly agree with), then she should be willing to live with the consequences her church chose to impose. As you have pointed out, there are plenty of other churches she has to choose from if she doesn't like the positions of the one she is curently in.

To answer your question of how your comments were insulting, mean, and deragotory, please refer to the following quotes from your article:

"Naumann and his religious ancestral minions..."

"...the greatest purveyors of "death to the infidels" for anyone not of their liking."

"...you should get off of your pontifical high-horse soap box and actually put some brain cells into understanding..."

"...not let some pompous pointing-hat votary..."

"...by the holy ring they've put in your nose..."

I hope this reminder helps you understand why I founjd your comments insulting and deragatory.

YourBSSucks


YourBSSucks -
You are a religious bigot, no doubt about it.
Posted by: kcstar_is_one_sided | May 22, 2008 11:07:39 AM


Actually KC_LopSided I'm a Lutheran. A member of The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America to be exact. If that makes me a bigot in YOUR mind then so be it. If you don't like my honesty, so be it. I highly doubt that all of your religious views are deemed to be acceptable by everyone.

I'm amused that you would judge me, which you really shouldn't if you're a good Christian boy/girl, without even offering up why you feel so disgusted with what I say. But then, antagonists usually don't provide worthwhile reasons for why they do things, they just enjoy disliking others who differ from them.

kcstar_is_one_sided

YourBSSucks -

You are a religious bigot, no doubt about it.

YourBSSucks

Marctnts - "How is the archbishop trying to influence politics by denying communion to someone who breaks the rules? I'm not catholic, but if I were, I would expect to have to follow the rules or risk being excluded. Your insulting, mean, and derogatory comments about religion and those who believe in it is very telling about you as a person. "

Sounds like I hit a nerve. Just in case you're a little behind on the process. Naumann wants the Gov to stand by his/church's religious wishes regarding her stance on the abortion legislation. That's stepping into the political arena. What rules is she breaking? Naumann says that her political views are against his/church's views. That's stepping into the political arena. Naumann tells her that as long as she holds out on her political views which is against his/church's view she can't partake of the grape juice and crackers. That's stepping into the political arena.

Excluded from what for not "following the rules" ? If you live your life based on the perception that being good will get you into heaven then you don’t need someone telling you how to live. You're suggesting that only by following someone's religious dogma will you enter thru the Pearly Gates. Whose dogma is right and whose is not right?

How were my comments "insulting, mean, and derogatory comments about religion" ? If you can't face the truth, then you shouldn’t be trying to defend something you know nothing about.

Dan Beyer

UPDATE: the article that has censored and completely eliminated the comment section has been retitled to, "Kline questions why Kansas Supreme Court won't let key witness testify".

solomon

hello zenozac..

Dan Beyer

The Star has now shut down the comment section of Diane Carroll's article titled, "Planned Parenthood(Inc.)hearing delayed" because they couldn't take what they've been dishing out to people they oppose!
They whip people up into a frenzy of hatred towards those they disagree with and when things then get ugly because of their hate mongering, they can't handle it when they're called on it!
Hateful hypocrites!

Marctnts

dolcemusica1,

I understand your position and agree to a point. I believe that everyone has the right to their own beliefs, and I don't think that the government has the right to legislate any particular set of beliefs.

That being said, I would guess that the catholic church doesn't distinguish between a believer's personal and public lives. I would also guess (whether correct or not) that the catholic church sees the acceptance, promotion, or active tolerance of something against church rules to be very similar to committing the very act itself.

My guesses really don't matter. What does matter is that the church has determined that her actions (or lack therof) are not acceptable, and as such, she should not be allowed to take part in their ceremonies. Whether or not you and I think this is "fair" doesn't matter, the church does and it is their call to make.

Does this mean that Sebelius cannot be a "good" catholic and have the same opinions of church and government that you and I seem to agree on? Perhaps, and if so that would be a shame. It will become her choice whether to retain her political position or maintain good standing within the church she has chosen.

dolcemusica1

Marctnts: My point was there is a difference between personal life and public life. In her personal life, I don't think she has had an abortion. If that's the case, exactly what "sin" did she personally commit? I'm not catholic but I do believe you have to go to confession regularly or at least sometime before you receive communion. Since she hasn't technically committed a sin, she should still be able to have communion.

I've had friends from a variety of religious backgrounds (Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Druidism, non believer, etc) though I'm Protestant. I respect their religious beliefs, however, what is right for me personally - is not exactly right for the masses. Therefore, the difference between personal, public, and the respect for diversity.

Marctnts

dolcemusica1,

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the archbishop "attacked" Sebelius. He simply said that since you don't want to live by the rules of our club, don't participate in our rituals.

YourBSSucks,

How is the archbishop trying to influence politics by denying communion to someone who breaks the rules? I'm not catholic, but if I were, I would expect to have to follow the rules or risk being excluded. Your insulting, mean, and derogatory comments about religion and those who believe in it is very telling about you as a person.

Engineer

renfro
If you do not like the Laws of Kansas, working to have them changed would be a more productive course of action than attacking those who are trying to enforce them. Looking the other way while big party contributors ignore the law is not exactly a recipe for good government.

YourBSSucks

So the Bishop tells the Kansas Gov that she's unwelcome at the table because her point of view isn’t the same as his or what the church has deemed the correct way to live and think.

Naumann and his religious ancestral minions for centuries have been the greatest purveyors of "death to the infidels" for anyone not of their liking. Need we go back all of those hundreds of years and dredge up the facts of the torture and murders in the name of the Roman Catholic Church that these holy beings have smote upon the innocents thru the ages whether it be in Rome, the jungles of some third world country or in Spain during the Inquisition.

We don’t need religious zealots trying to influence politics under the guise of God's desires. We don’t report to or need to justify our decisions to them and only have our own personal supreme being, should we have one, that we need to appease. Unlike what some of these people try to make you believe, you're not going to hell because you don't drink their grape-juice and eat their crackers.

What I find amazingly interesting is that some of you are judging her only on her decision to veto the legislation and not the content by which she made her decision. Perhaps you should get off of your pontifical high-horse soap box and actually put some brain cells into understanding what the wording of the legislation really means and not let some pompous pointing-hat votary lead you by the holy ring they've put in your nose. Maybe then you could take control over your very existence and not spend your life beating your chest in everlasting grief for the guilt that they want you to continually place upon yourself for their own historical misdeeds.

dolcemusica1

I'm against abortion, however, the archbishop was way out of line to "attack" Sebelius personally on a public subject. Whenever someone is in public office, they are to represent ALL people - ALL religions, ALL cultures, - not just a select few.

What if Sebelius was a Mormon (not the FLDS)? Drinking alcohol is against their faith. Let's say Sebelius didn't drink alcohol, however, she doesn't restrict others around her or the State of Kansas to not drink. Would it be appropriate for the leader of the Mormon faith to "attack" her publicly for allowing the residents of the state of Kansas to drink alcohol? Though we don't know for sure, I highly doubt that Sebelius has had an abortion. However as a public figure, she has to represent all - even if it is against her personal faith.

Mark Robertson

So Gov. Kathleen Sebelius, in order to lead the entire state, has to be pro-abortion.
So by being pro-abortion, she is also representing pro-lifers? One of the stupidest things I have ever read in Star Letters. Leaders are called to take stands.
And Gov.Kathleen Sebelius is just following her conscience, as permitted by Vatican II. That may be the stupidest thing that I have read in Star Letters.
Catechism of the Catholic Church 1783:
'Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of the conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings."
Right, we all know those Vatican II bishops wanted people to use their consciences to kill babies. Thankyou.

Mark Robertson
Independence

renfro

Rome verses Kathleen Sebelius?
Governor or dogcatcher --- if religious dogma impairs your capacity to serve a free society you lack the credentials to seek public office. County District Attorney Phill Kline a republican abuses the privilege of office in Kansas with a theocratic anti-abortion obsession and Missouri democrat politicos of the same ilk in Jefferson City applaud his actions! You needn’t share the same religious cult or fantasy to be wrong!

Marctnts

"Naumann’s arrogant, public attempt to shame her is typical. If he is going to tell us how to vote, his tax-exempt status should be revoked." - Kay Goodnow

I don't rememeber the archbishop telling catholics how to vote. In essence, he said what Rogue said the other day. "If you don't like our rules, don't participate in our club."

BTW - 501c3 religious tax exempt organizations ARE allowed to promote positions based upon ISSUES, they just aren't allowed to promote CANDIDATES.

 
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