Iraq war sets bad precedent

The Bush doctrine has not gone unnoticed by the world: Forgo diplomatic measures and go to shock and awe as we did in Iraq. Russia is now following our lead in Georgia.

What can we really say, since we’ve lost the moral high road? Who are we to talk about a great power attacking a smaller nation that did nothing to provoke them? I’m sure Russia can provide the same kind of intelligence that the United States did before attacking Iraq, namely Georgia is a threat to Russian citizens.

We have lost our credibility to many in the world. Somehow the old “Do as I say, not as I do” ain’t working here.

David Hooper
Kansas City

When “the good guys” break international law, invade a sovereign nation and depose the leaders of that nation, those very same “good guys” end up having no leg to stand on when “the bad guys” do the very same thing somewhere else. Our “means” have subverted our intended “ends.”

Our protests (though completely valid) over the invasion of Georgia by the Russians ring hollow and fall on deaf ears, due to our own illicit actions in the Middle East.

It’s time that we, the citizens of this nation, once again elect leaders who adhere to the principles of democracy and consign themselves to democratic action at home and abroad. Then maybe, just maybe, we will be able to influence the world community for the better in matters such as this deplorably outrageous act of aggression in Georgia.

Royal Scanlon
Kansas City

Has their ever been a more brazen case of chutzpah than President Bush lecturing the Russians on their invasion of Georgia? On Monday he told White House reporters: “Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century.” I guess it’s only OK when he does it.

In the last few days, we’ve seen an invasion of a sovereign nation despite near unanimous world outrage, news that corporations pay virtually no taxes, news that the Endangered Species Act is to be gutted by executive order, and news that the Department of Justice won’t pursue the case of illegal political influence in their hiring practices. Has any five-day period been a better microcosm of the Bush administration?

Dennis Croskey
Kansas City

Comments

[CRD]

"However, there seems to be no reason to believe that Georgia, as a whole, is not a stable country."

I guess ... if you ignore what's transpired in the past couple of weeks.

You do have a history of conveniently ignoring reality that conflicts with your worldview.

[solomon]

The question is still out there for another 24 hours my friend.

[solomon]

Darn I hate it when he does that! i know he's been here because I've seen his track on other threads. Could it be that rather than answer he'll hope this question goes away at 10:30?

[solomon]

Good evening Engineer,

When the Soviet Union fell apart there were quick borders thrown up, and you'd have to be naive to believe they'd stand.

I know you late logical rebuttals, but what the Russians did by moving people into the regions surrounding South Ossetia pale in comparison to the way we took the Southwest and California from the legitimate gov't of Mexico. I started to mention the American Native population, but they weren't civilized in your opinion and did not deserve the lands they'd inhabited for centuries, without the need of a control and taxing gov't structure. Of course that is our history, and what is happening in the conflict now is current so you can have double standards.

Any logic you'd like to counter that with?

[Engineer]

CRD
Iraq and Georgia represent quite different situations. Georgia's troubles have there origin in past USSR actions, the moving of ethnic Russians into other territories. The USSR did this in the Baltic States as well but the fact that these Nations are NATO members may make Russia’s exploitation of this more difficult. However, there seems to be no reason to believe that Georgia, as a whole, is not a stable country or that the population, by a wide majority, did not wish separation from Russia.

[CRD]

Um, isn't that Interface's point below, that Iraq, which had been supported by the U.S. throughout the 80s as a counter to Soviet-supported Iran after the overthrow of the Shah, turned out to be quite an unstable ally?

[Engineer]

Interface
Iraq had violated, swat, 14 UN directives and was controlled by a murderous dictator. The situations are far from the same. As for "leverage"; under what conditions would one expect any effective action from "Old Europe"? Those countries more or less ignored the problems in the Balkans. They cannot be relied upon to take any real action and the situation as regards Iraq has nothing to do with this fact as history attests.

[solomon]

kate,

Point heard and accepted, and I'll accept my penance like the good Catholic I used to be as a child, even while standing firm by my true menaing yesterday. I would not expect to be treated better than your mate.

If you read my comments about my conversation with my wife last night you can see I am remorseful about it. Other than that I'm just braced for the storm I know is coming. I feel like I'm in that quiet time before the tornado.

[solomon]

kate,

Talk is talk, what response was McCain, then Obama, then the Bush administration calling for against Russia? Empires fall apart and it take decades and sometimes generations for all the borders and ethnic disputes to be sorted out. We've recently watched the repercussions of the Hapsburg and ottoman empires be played out in the Balkans and the Middle East, and those Empires fell 90 years ago. The continent of Africa is still reeling from the end of the one-sided colonial ventures of the Germans, British, French, Italians and Dutch in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

War is hell, people who have lived in areas like South Ossetia have always been pawns in a much larger game between major powers. Georgia would like to be a major player, and by attaching themselves to the US (through NATO membership), they see their only chance. Georgia has been a nation for almost 2000 years, but in that time they have rarely been independent and never a major political or influential force to be reckoned with.

Bottom line, expect much posturing from the US, very little accomodation from Russia and the people in south Ossetia to be screwed, no matter who wins in November.

[CRD]

Another perspective to counter Bolten's right-wing one:

"I’d also note the significance of Barack Obama’s and John McCain’s reactions to the conflict, which actually tell us quite a bit about their respective approaches to foreign policy. Ben Smith published a solid report on this last night.

'While Obama offered a response largely in line with statements issued by democratically elected world leaders, including President Bush, first calling on both sides to negotiate, John McCain took a remarkably — and uniquely — more aggressive stance, siding clearly with Georgia’s pro-Western leaders and placing the blame for the conflict entirely on Russia.

'The abrupt crisis in an obscure hotspot had the features of the real foreign policy situations presidents face — not the clean hypotheticals of candidates’ white papers and debating points…. Both American candidates back Georgia’s sovereignty and its turn toward the West. But their first statements on the crisis revealed differences of substance and style.'

Obama, calling for restraint and condemning the “outbreak of violence,” also criticized Russia for having “invaded Georgia’s sovereign” and having “encroached on Georgia’s sovereignty.” Obama’s line was largely consistent with that of the Bush White House, the European Union, NATO, and a series of European powers.

John McCain took a different line, which, as Smith noted, “put him more closely in line with the moral clarity and American exceptionalism projected by President Bush’s first term.”

'A McCain adviser suggested that Obama’s statement constituted appeasement…. McCain’s statement was longer, more detailed and more confrontational.

“[T]he news reports indicate that Russian military forces crossed an internationally recognized border into the sovereign territory of Georgia. Russia should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces from sovereign Georgian territory.

“The government of Georgia has called for a ceasefire and for a resumption of direct talks on South Ossetia with international mediators. The U.S. should immediately work with the EU and the OSCE to put diplomatic pressure on Russia to reverse this perilous course that it has chosen.”

John McCain’s top foreign policy adviser, Randy Scheunemann, defended McCain’s direct criticism of Russia in the early hours of the crisis.

“Sen. McCain is clearly willing to note who he thinks is the aggressor here,” he said, dismissing the notion that Georgia’s move into its renegade province had precipitated the crisis. “I don’t think you can excuse, defend, explain or make allowance for Russian behavior because of what is going on in Georgia.”

That Scheunemann just so happens to have been a well-paid lobbyist for the Georgian government might, just might, raise questions about a potential conflict here.

Mark Brzezinski, a former Clinton White House official and an informal adviser to Obama, added, “McCain took an inflexible approach to addressing this issue by focusing heavily on one side, without a pragmatic assessment of the situation. It’s both sides’ fault — both have been somewhat provocative with each other.”

Wait, would-be presidents should appreciate nuance when dealing with an international crisis? Credible candidates should be able to recognize gray areas in complex parts of Eastern Europe? Thoughtful would-be leaders need not to rush to view the world as a series of good guys and bad guys?

Ya don’t say.

Let’s be clear: if McCain the Candidate is a reliable indicator of what we can expect from McCain the President, the presumptive Republican nominee would apparently be anxious to exacerbate the burgeoning war, and antagonize Russia.

There’s a lot going on right now, but this is a very important development in the presidential campaign. Ben Smith characterized this as a “true ‘3 a.m. moment’” for the presidential candidates. And at this point, McCain is once again looking pretty scary."

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/16505.html

I'd have to agree with this take. McCain allowed himself to be boxed in way too quickly. Not a good thing.

[Kate]

Great photo essay of The Obama’s Hawaiian vacation over at HuffPo, where commenters gush “It's not just that he's physically handsome, either. He radiates warmth and enjoyment of people and life.” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/14/obama-bodysurfs-in-hawaii_n_119070.html

Radiant warmth – sounds like the solution for that sticky Georgia situation. Personally, I’m a little disappointed that no pictures were taken of him walking on water.

Sol, I don't remember complaining when you called GCYL an ass, but my limited intellect might be affecting my memory. My husband would pay for a comment like that for days. I see no reason to give anyone else preferential treatment. :)

[Kate]

Interesting commentary from John Bolton:

“It profits us little to blame Georgia for “provoking” the Russian attack. Nor is it becoming of the United States to have anonymous officials from its State Department telling reporters, as they did earlier this week, that they had warned Georgia not to provoke Russia. This confrontation is not about who violated the Marquess of Queensbury rules in South Ossetia, where ethnic violence has been a fact of life since the break-up of the Soviet Union on December 31, 1991 – and, indeed, long before. Instead, we are facing the much larger issue of how Russia plans to behave in international affairs for decades to come. Whether Mikhail Saakashvili “provoked” the Russians on August 8, or September 8, or whenever, this rape was well-planned and clearly coming, given Georgia’s manifest unwillingness to be “Finlandized” – the Cold War term for effectively losing your foreign-policy independence.”

Bolton says that Georgia wasted it’s dime on the 3 am call to the White House. And he says that the most important step to restoring our credibility is in the upcoming election, where “Americans have an opportunity to take our own national pulse, given the widely differing reactions to Russia’s blitzkrieg from Senator McCain and (at least initially) Senator Obama. First reactions, before the campaigns’ pollsters and consultants get involved, are always the best indicators of a candidate’s real views. McCain at once grasped the larger, geostrategic significance of Russia’s attack, and the need for a strong response, whereas Obama at first sounded as timorous and tentative as the Bush Administration. Ironically, Obama later moved closer to McCain’s more robust approach, followed only belatedly by Bush.” http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2563260/John-Bolton-After-Russias-invasion-of-Georgia-what-now-for-the-West.html

Off topic, I'm wondering how many special forces were transported on those humanitarian aid flights.

[solomon]

Dearest kate,

Its so nice to have friends. Why could you not have consulted that one when I called someone an ass? Sorry for my comment to you about a shortcoming I perceived yestersday, although you don't hesitate mentioning mine.

Are we going to be cross for awhile? I'd just like to know.

[CRD]

"I think we can be sure that our gov't knew of Georgias intended actions, also of Russias response. the timiming of it, at a time when Putin and Bush were both going to be in China, is also something that could not have escaped any of the parties."

It does seem to have taken McCain by surprise -- ironic, given his campaign's lobbyist ties to Georgia.

[Kate]

Actually, “forgo” is a word. It’s a transitive verb meaning “to give up the enjoyment or advantage of” or “do without.” Maybe you were thinking of the variant spelling, “forego.”

A kind friend helped me find this information in the dictionary, as it is a challenge for me, what with my limited mental capacity and all.

[solomon]

newdealer,

I think we can be sure that our gov't knew of Georgias intended actions, also of Russias response. the timiming of it, at a time when Putin and Bush were both going to be in China, is also something that could not have escaped any of the parties.

I hate war, but recognize it as a fact of humanity. There will always be people who want to be free to determine their own alliances (South Ossetia), nations who want to claim territory that doesn't want them as rulers (in this case Georgia) and powerful nations that will go to war over their citizens (Russia in this case).

Wait two or three weeks, no one will care any more.

[newdealer]

Gosh, rogue/buddyt, I'm disappointed that you couldn't come up with a better pejorative. Anyway, your view of foreign policy seems to be stuck in the '50s and it's rather obvious you don't have a clue about the current situation between Georgia and Russia.

Georgia was the initial aggressor but Russia can also be criticized for overreaction.

Since the U.S. maintains very current order-of-battle maps, especially on Russian forces, and Georgia is supposed to be an ally, it's a pretty good bet that we knew Georgian forces were going to invade South Ossetia and that Russia was massing tanks and troops to retaliate.

[CRD]

I'm not sure how pointing out that (a) perhaps Russia isn't the sole aggressor in this conflict, and (b) that the U.S. by its actions in Iraq and elsewhere has sorely eroded any moral high ground and destroyed any leverage it had constitutes "deifying Russia."

[Rogue]

Once again Newdog you have let your alligator mouth overload your hummingbird b-hole.

Solomon, my poit was and is, Russia is not the sympathetic figure that our friends in the moonbat kookdom portray it to be.

As Inter Flop states we do not have all the facts yet, and indeed Georgia may have some fault in the affair. That being said, there is no reason to deify the Russians.

Oh, and BTW it is another way for our friends to say "America Sucks" because we liberated Iraq.

[newdealer]

Once again, Rogue/BuddyT proves that he always has an opinion, regardless of how ill informed and ignorant it may be. He's the guy walking down the street all by himself wearing a T-shirt that says, "I'm with stupid."

[CRD]

It seems to me that the political reality on the ground may not be as one-sided or clear-cut as either the Georgian PM or President Bush would have it -- and it's worth noting that they each have a vested interest in selling this conflict as "Russian aggression against a fledgling democracy," but there are significant questions to be raised as to whether the Georgian government was the initial aggressor in trying to prevent the people in South Ossetia from cementing their allegience to Russia rather than Georgia.

There's an awful lot we don't know, but it does seems likely that Georgia was not so stable or cohesive as Bush thought it was. Wishful thinking and a U.S.-supported government do not alone a stable ally make. (Witness: Shah Reza Pahlavi of Iran, President Ngo Dinh Diem of South Vietnam, Saddam Hussein of Iraq, President Musharraf of Pakistan, among others)

[solomon]

Good morningrogue,

Do they still have Gulags in Russia? i thought they were a thing of the past. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Another thing, you don't have one bit of respect for the UN do you? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Aren't Lenin and Stalin dead? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As I said in my post, we should condemn Russia for going into Georgia(lodging protests is the thing powers do), but the people of South Ossetia that Georgia attacked are citizens of Russia, and Russia has a duty to protect its citizens. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Rogue]

You have to love the American leftist moonbats. Immediately they defend the country that gave us Lenin, Stalin, and those wonderful instiutions, the Gulags! What humanitarians they are! How dare those evil Georgians dare question their invasion, how dare they!

Do you not recall the Russians presenting their case to the UN? Do you now recall that those obnoxious Georgians had broken dozens of UN resolutions? Didm't the Russians give these people 17 months notice to straighten up and fly right?

It is darn good thing that humanitarians like Putin, and the KGB are in charge over there. Just think what could of happened if Georgia were to stay a democracy! OMG, they could have controlled a pipeline too....Whew, that was close...

[CRD]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/14/AR2008081403048.html

[solomon]

Even though my posts are often made with bad spelling and typo's, let me be the first here today to mention that "forgo" is not a word. At least we know where Dan Quail workd now.

As far a the military action in South Ossetia and Georgia, hard as it is to take the Russians side in anything they are defending people who have wanted ever since the USSR broke up to be part of Russia. Georgia has no claim other than they grabbed South Ossetia against its peoples will in that breakup. There is a big difference between what Russia is doing there and what we are doing in Iraq for years now.

I don't think though, after reflecting upon the situation you can call us hypocrites for objectin, lodging protests against actions like this are part of the political chees game powers play. Georgia, as Engineer rightly pointed out the other day, is our ally and we have to stand up for them. Not that the Russians really care, as we'd never go to war with them over this.