Pelosi wrong about abortion

On last Sunday’s “Meet the Press,” House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was asked when life begins. She said that as an “ardent practicing Catholic,” she has learned that “over the centuries the doctors of the church have not been able to make that definition,” saying that St. Augustine said that life begins at “three months” in the womb. And she said that the Catholic teaching on when life begins is only 50 years old — an obvious shot at the Catholic teaching on contraception.

First, she might want to talk to Pope Benedict XVI or read what any of the popes say on the issue of when life begins. As pointed out in the catechism of the Catholic Church, “Human life must be protected absolutely from the moment of conception.”

Second, St. Augustine said that human life begins in the womb at the “time of animation.”

And third, church writings specifically name abortion as an act of murder as early as 70 A.D.

Could Pelosi’s claim that expanding oil drilling offshore and in Alaska would not lower the price of oil significantly also be wrong?

Mark S. Robertson
Independence

Comments

[ChotoCK]

Sorry Tony, you lose. Abortion has always been condemned, the issue you are trying to cloud the the waters with is the extent of the crime, manslaughter or homicide (over simplification but you work with what you got). Aristotle's thoughts on delayed ensoulment was only used to define the punishment of the always gravely evil act of abortion. I suggest you check out http://catholidoxy.blogspot.com/2008/08/pelosi-on-mtp-catholic-tradition-vague.html for more information.

Pub, I apologize, I misunderstood and thought you were seeking some Scriptural basis for the Catholic teaching on abortion. The quote from Jeremiah is excellent and a good starting point. The above link though, will give you an interesting one from 1 Enoch, not in the Canon (except Ethiopic Orthodox)

[Tony Sidaway]

Nancy Pelosi was correct to tell Tom Brokaw that Church teaching on this has changed over time and, within the church followers, is not settled.

Historically although abortion was condemned as breaking the link between sex and procreation, at least until the end of the first trimester it was not considered homicide because the fetus was not considered to be "fully formed".

This fits quite well with modern medicine which finds that the fetus does not begin to develop a central nervous system until the twelfth week (90% of US abortions take place in the first twelve weeks).

However in the 19th century Pius IX changed the law of the church so that, in effect, life was considered to start from conception. Paul VI confirmed that stance in "Humanae Vitae". However no Pontiff has made an infallible pronouncement on this matter, so there is room within the church for dissent on the question of when life begins. Humanae Vitae itself was the subject of a dissenting memorandum, the Winnipeg Statement, by Canadian bishops who thought the opposition to various birth controls went too far.

Church leaders in the US are muddying the waters and trying to pretend that there is no longer a debate on this subject within the church. This is incorrect, and Pelosi correctly points out that they're wrong. In particular, as a politician she is wise to reflect the views of ordinary Roman Catholic voters, who are among those she represents, rather than those of the church hierarchy who represent an organization with interests distinct from those of the secular government of the United States of America.

American Catholic voters, despite current Church doctrine, consistently tend as a whole to support abortion as a choice between a woman and her physician subject to medical circumstances. As a politician Pelosi should represent the voters even when, or rather especially when, those voters' opinions differ from the opinions expressed by their Church hierarchy in attempts to influence the result of a democratic election.

[Pub 17]

Well, he's certainly got my name and number if I'm ordained a prophet unto the nations, I'll grant you that.

In any case, that's the FIRST cogent response I've gotten, and duly recorded.

[GCYL]

“I found hundreds of references to both yesterday, but nobody cited chapter and verse, and I couldn't find anything on the Bible sites. This is a first.” - Pub 17

Not a catholic but this verse should cause some pondering.

Jeremiah 1:5: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

God has your name and number way before conception. Apparently you’re much more important to him than a man made need for time.

[GCYL]

“They select a more charismatic Icon or leader and perform what could be referred to as a business Spin-Off or sect.” – renfro

Why does the name Obama and his faithful collective come to mind as the other side of this coin?

[Pub 17]

ChotoCK
Catholic tradition AND ecclesiastic condemnation of abortion stated that life began at the quickening, not at conception. That's not what I'm seeking. I know that there's Biblical references to the beginning of life, and that one verse is supposed to explicitly refer to the quickening, and several others refer indirectly to life beginning at conception. The discussion online is such that I'm sure these verses exist, but I'm coming up empty on the exact cites, even on the Bible websites. This has never happened before, and I've been trying to find anyone who's got the quotes.

[ChotoCK]

Pub, Catholics do not only look to Scripture for answers, we look also to Tradition and the writings of the Saints and other persons. So your question "where is that in Scripture" does not work with Catholics and the Eastern Churches.

As for those lives lost to miscarriage, they are to be prayed for just as those that died at age 100. As to whether the state counts them as citizens or whatever else, that is up to the state.

I believe Mark may be trying to connect the fact that Pelosi stated a falsehood about easily verified Catholic dogma, and her beliefs on expanding domestic oil drilling. If she could be so blatantly wrong on a point that has not changed in nearly 2000 years, she could then be wrong about another. Not the strongest argument ever presented, but an interesting one none the less.

[kcstar_is_one_sided]

"It beats taking responsibility for your ridiculous stance that the government owns human life at conception."

Pub - Where did I ever say that. I didn't. Don't put words in my mouth. Not only are you an idiot, but you are a liar as well. Prove that I said that, find the exact quote or as you said yesterday STFU.

[NoMoreMrNiceGuy]

No Dan, according to some CONVENIENCE and ENTITLEMENTS are the basis of the Constitution and life.
Let's even take the Bible ficition out of the equation. Common sense and moral fabric is all we need to account for. Murder is murder regardless of age.

[Dan Beyer]

I know this isn't from the bible, but it is interesting reading:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life...

[NoMoreMrNiceGuy]

Oh I see, advocating being a whore and using BC is the answer.

[Pub 17]

renfro-
Third post of the day, I said, "does anybody have the exact biblical verse that defines the beginning of life as the quickening, and the ones that can be taken to mean that life begins at conception?
I found hundreds of references to both yesterday, but nobody cited chapter and verse, and I couldn't find anything on the Bible sites."
I'm still looking--any takers? I'm 99% sure the cites exist, can't find 'em.

[renfro]

Chapter and verse, the same old “life begins at conception” refrain from the faithful with tired rhetoric to confirm or support religious dogma! – “Talk to Pope Benedict XVI or read what any of the popes say on the issue of when life begins”? ---- Hello Wall!
“Church writings (that) specifically name abortion as an act of murder as early as 70 A.D” in a Tome hundreds of years old are to be declared fact without question or examination? Sounds like the Star’s editorial dictating of KC social policies but at least they occasionally admit or correct errors and mistakes. The other day they printed a correction to their correction. --- In religion the differences exist but without footnotes.When believers of a chosen path disagree -- debate or correction is unnecessary. They select a more charismatic Icon or leader and perform what could be referred to as a business Spin-Off or sect.
The change offered by the party Pelosi represents are lame and irresponsible but they do recognize the reproductive rights of women and the separation of church and state.

[Pub 17]

Good one, fool, declare victory and get the hell out. It beats taking responsibility for your ridiculous stance that the government owns human life at conception.

[kcstar_is_one_sided]

Pub the big difference between me and you on this argument is that you have to justify killing babies, I don't. Have fun with that.

[kcstar_is_one_sided]

Incidentally, ignoramus, what's an Ad Homien?

Man, can you ask for anything more classic than that statement. HAHAHAHAHa

[Pub 17]

Except if you Google abstinence education you'll find out it doesn't work. Liberals support actual sex education which DOES work to reduce abortions. Learn to live with it: McCain has ensured two generations of liberal presidents with his stupidity.

[NoMoreMrNiceGuy]

I support shutting down rewards and glamour programs for woman ONLY and start holding them accountable as prents and mothers.
Maybe if we started advocating and endorsing marriage and fammily versus LIBERAL promiscuity and single parent victimology, we would curb abortions and absent parents.

[Pub 17]

Incidentally, ignoramus, what's an Ad Homien?

[Pub 17]

Continue to blow smoke, kc pointy. Anybody with more intelligence and more education than you--which admittedly doesn't narrow the field much--can recognize instantly that you don't have an answer to the question, at what point does the state have the obligation to violate a woman's privacy as they violate the right to liberty of a criminal? And that you're prepared to try every way possible to gnaw your way out the cage you've constructed. Fool.

[Pub 17]

So you support universal monthly pregnancy testing, so that fathers can determine if the mother is abusing their baby?

[kcstar_is_one_sided]

Yes Pub 17 -

I highly recommend that you take a look at that thread that Pub is talking about. It shows that Pub is the king of Ad Homien, Strawman, and over generalization. His logic is ludicrous and frankly he is just a troll.

My original comment that must have set the troll of:

"But if you want an education, do a little research in biology whereby life does actually begin at conception. What may not happen at conception is the state's recognition of that life. Had your side been smart enough to argue that, it would be one thing, but it argues that life doesn't begin until some arbitrary floating point"

He went on over the next few hours claiming:

"YOU'RE the one who made the outrageous statement about life beginning at conception"

Now when asked by me as when he thinks life begins he write:

"Life obviously begins at conception."

Then he goes on an talks about human life as being different from life. I have to assume that he is talking about the recognition of the life as human by the state. Obviously, one of the primary tenets of Biology is that a species offspring must also be of that species, so to claim that that "Glob of cells" can be anything but human is ridiculous.

Pub seems to make the argument that because it is not nice and tidy that life begins at conception and that many zygotes never make it full term that somehow we have to account for all of those zygotes, thus we should just take the simple route and use the current liberal points about when life begins. How nice, tidy, and sweet. What a fallacy in logic. What a stupid suggestion. The truth is Pub, you can't have it both ways and deep down you know it. You can't claim that life starts at one point and then support abortion because you know deep down that it is immoral. So go take a look in the mirror about who wants it both ways.

Remarkably, this fits right in with the Pelosi statement. Pelosi claims to be a Catholic, yet either doesn't know what the catholic church teaches about abortion, or she like Pub is lying to herself about it. Pelosi is just justifying herself. As I noted before, she is a complete idiot.

[Dan Beyer]

Right on Mark!

[NoMoreMrNiceGuy]

Actually it's not a woman controlling just her body, that child she is carrying belongs to BOTH parents not just her.
That child has the right to life not death due to inconvenience.
Funny how these same femi-nazi pro-murder women are the first one's in line asking for foodstamps and tax free income because they got pregnant by themselves.
Off shore drilling? What do you propose, making tires and aggregate from air?
Yet another ignorant, irresponsible Demo lib.

[Rogue]

Good letter Mark. San Fran Nan Gram is rather typical I would guess of her region, the land of fruits and nuts....