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February 17, 2009

Conflict in Gaza

There are some who might take issue with Devra Lerner’s recent “As I See It” column on Israel and Gaza (2/11, Opinion, “Hamas’ actions show lack of care for Palestinian people”). But it’s difficult to find fault with her final statement: “Ultimately, peace will come when Hamas loves its people more than it hates Israel.”

Steve Katz
Leawood

Comments

solomon

Engineer,

I think it remarkable that you'd side with Spartacus but not Nat Turner. They both rebelled against oppression but in the case of Spartacus many more non combatant people were killed. Could there be a deeper reason you'd back one and not the other?

As far as the state of Israel, I think it ridiculous that being for them, against them or not caring about them at all has become a litmus test of some sort.

solomon

Roger,

First of all I care nothing for how you think others should view things.

Engineer, who I sometimes agree with and sometimes don't can't point out where he has asked me something and I have not responded.

You did not ask me a question, you made a comment about me not being decent because I am neutral in my feelings about Hamas and Israel. Please point out a question here I have failed to answer.

Why do I have to consider Hamas or Israel the good guys or the bad guys? They are two groups with entirely different goals and I do not agree with either of them. I have no kinship, religious affiliation or stake in the outcome of their struggle. They both kill women and children and then make excuses for why.

Engineer

solomon
Israel is the only Nation that has a bloc of nations eager for its destruction. On top of that fact is the fact the bloc can pretty well control the votes in the UN General Assembly on the Israeli question. What should be crystal clear is that the UN will make no effort to protect Israel. Israel is not the only nation or area we have supported. There has been South Korea, Kosovo, Kuwait, and the ill fated attempt to bring relief to Somalia. We have done this, but the main purpose of the UN was to keep peace. If UN can’t, and we must do it, let’s get rid of an impediment.

Engineer

solomon
Israel is the only Nation that has a bloc of nations eager for its destruction. On top of that fact is the fact the bloc can pretty well control the votes in the UN General Assembly on the Israeli question. What should be crystal clear is that the UN will make no effort to protect Israel. Israel is not the only nation or area we have supported. There has been South Korea, Kosovo, Kuwait, and the ill fated attempt to bring relief to Somalia. We have done this, but the main purpose of the UN was to keep peace. If UN can’t, and we must do it, let’s get rid of an impediment.

Engineer

solomon
Based on what I know, my sympathies would have to go with the inhabitant of Canaan. I would also side with Spartacus. In the case of Geronimo, he was of a warrior people who preyed on others as a way of life. You know, of course, that "Apache" was not his people's name for themselves. Apache was, I think, a Pima word for enemy. In the case of Nat Turner, I could never support anyone who called for servile rebellion and the murder of women and children.

Roger Lambert

Engineer,

I have begun to notice that Solomon only asks questions, but refuses to give answers when questioned by others. This is uncharitable of him, and I can only assume annoying after a while.


Solomon,

The point to my questions was simple. For example, I'm neutral about South Korea. I don't prefer it in any way to Japan, Indonesia, Thailand, etc. However, when South Korea gets in a dispute with North Korea, I'm hardly neutral. One party is a flawed democracy; the other country is, to be blunt, an abomination. There is no "neutral" in the dispute. I believe that a decent person would view Hamas in a way similar to the way a decent person would view North Korea.

If you disagree, then say so and tell us why. It's normal procedure in these forums, I do believe, to both ask and answer.

solomon

BTW engineer,

I'll take Spartacus, Nat Turner, Geronimo and the inhabitants of Canaan. What is your opinion on that?

solomon

Good evening Engineer,

Let's be fair, I have stated here that I am not a supporter of Hamas or Israel and I think it is ridiculous that it has become some kind of test of decency or patriotism. I've asked you the same thing I'm asking roger tonight and your answers run from not being able to hold your head up if we did not support israel to stating that if not for us the UN itself would probably launch an attack on Israel. At the same time you willingly abandon other populations that deal daily with much more horrendous assaults to the care of the UN.

I suspect your love and devotion to Israel is that it is a country made up of American and European immigrants. If that is true you and others should just say so, I won't fault you for it. At the same time you should not fault me for not giving a crap about them.

For you to say I never say what I'm for or against is untrue. I said I was for Bush. I am for equal rights for all Americans regardless of race, creed or sexual persuasion. I am against military foreign aid from us to anyone. I support the war in Afghanistan. I do not support the imperialistic actions in Iraq. I don't think we have a right to spread democracy on our terms, calling it true democracy only if our candidate wins.

Engineer

Roger
Danged if I could find one in your list. Them cussed Miz-zoo tigers...;-)
But you've got to understand solomon's MO. By claiming not to be "for" anything he hopes to get you to present your arguments. Yhen he can attack or ignore them at his pleasure. But he seldom states his own reasons for feeling one way or the other. It's lots more fun to chip away at the other guy than to defend your own position.

solomon

Roger,

What makes your backing of Israel decent and my not caring about them indecent? What makes them special to you?

solomon

Why Roger Lambert....you self indulgent man...

You can start at any time now to explain how your opinion trumps others.

You'll never hear me side with the Taliban or the North Koreans. Hamas is as legitimate a political party as any other, you just happen to dislike them and like Israel.

tell me roger, which of these had right on their side?.....

Spartacus vs the Roman Empire

Nat Turner and his rebels vs the slave owners.

Geronimo vs the US Calvary

the Israelites vs the inhabitants of Canaan

Roger Lambert

"This is a discussion, not an argument, as I am not on either side."


Solomon is not on either side between Israel and Hamas? I would argue that making that assertion by itself is a bold, and ugly, admission. What I mean is that being neutral can sometimes be pretty awful, especially when you are neutral about unequal entities. For example, the list below contains only one item where decent people can disagree. The other three? Not so much.

KU vs. MU
Taliban vs. U.S.
Hamas vs. Israel
North Korea vs. South Korea


solomon

Sammy,

This is a discussion, not an argument, as I am not on either side. Expanding a discussion is not changing it. I feel it fair to ask impassioned supporters of Israel exactly what makes them special compared to other populations under duress.

The letter from Mr Katz, which I posted in response to, is about Gaza. The region we were discussing is Gaza, unless you are saying that Gaza can not be called a "region".

As far as you answering the question you deemed legit, it did not address the Gaza strip, it addressed what you consider the value in your eyes of Israel. I have no problem with that answer.

My question about what positive initiatives Israel has put forth is what I mean when I say I've been asking for examples all day.

The fact is Sammy, is that although there are Arabs and Palestinians who live in peace with the Israelis there are also millions more of them made refugee's by Israel and subjected to a military enforced subjugation.

Sammy

"I've been asking for examples all day..."
Huh? Where have you asked for examples?

Sammy

Once again? Your question was: "What are the positive initiatives Israel has ever put forth in the region?" Why not use "Gaza" in place of "the region" if that's what you meant. Rather, it seems you're changing the argument. I'll play along.

What are they doing in Gaza? It looks like they're defending themselves and the 20% Arabic population who choose to live freely and peaceably with them. Seems I recall they vacated the strip a few years back to appease Hamas and got rocket fire as thanks.

I thought you were looking for answers to your original two questions. I answered the one I thought was legit. Do you disagree with the answer? If so, why?

Now you add a third rather than engaging on the others: "what makes Israel more worthy in your eyes than all of the other populations under duress around the globe?"

Who said they were?

solomon

Roger,

You obviously have some knowledge of the oppression committed by Hamas compared to Israel. "100 times more freedom...than under Hamas" I've been asking for examples all day, will you please provide just a few?

Roger Lambert

The irony is that Arab Muslims living in Israel have 100 times more freedoms and rights than the Arab Muslims living under Hamas.

And please, let's not even discuss the Jews living under Hamas' rule, because there aren't any. They'd have their heads chopped off within the first few hours of entering Gaza.

GCYL

“Something intelligent and realistic please.” - solomon

An odd request from someone who continues to hold Ted Bundy’s neighbors responsible for his actions.

solomon

Sammy,

Once again, we are talking about Gaza, specifically Hamas and Israels actions there. I also would take issue that there is not opposition from within the Arab population in Israel.

I will ask you what I asked BuddyT, what makes Israel more worthy in your eyes than all of the other populations under duress around the globe?

Sammy

Sol - I don't hear many complaints from the 1.4 million (20% of Israel's population) Arabic citizens in Israel. It seems that those who believe in peace, freedom and basic human rights get along well and have opportunity to enjoy a good standard of living.

 
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