Withdraw troops from Afghanistan

I strongly believe that America should withdraw her armed forces from Afghanistan within the quickest practical time.

Not one more service member, fighting under the leadership of his current commander-in-chief, should lose his life in this “good war.” Not one.

Robert Kobler
Bonner Springs

Comments

[Wild Man]

I’m glad that the use of “multisyllabics” gives you such orgasmic pleasure. You sound so wound up that maybe you need a release. I've heard that the inability to perform can be at the root of some of these psychological problems. Remember, admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.

[Smarter Than You]

And we're back to where our disagreements usually wind up. You've lost the arguments on factual basis and now need to make it about me. That’s OK, I can take a little abuse from a lesser mind.

As for the rest of your spurious claims; go back and reread the posts. The answers for the latest machinations of your garbled thought process are there. There’s no need for me to retype it because you’ve proven yourself incapable of rational thought or comprehension. Sorry again for the multisyllabics, but the thought of you sounding out those “big people” words still amuses the hell out of me.

And please don’t feel insulted that I had to use the phrase “big people.” I wasn’t sure you’d comprehend the comment otherwise.

[Wild Man]

Seriously STY, you need to get some professional help. The post that I responded to was the longest post you made in this thread, not a “quick missive” as you describe. You went to the trouble to research and find quotes to try and make your point, none of which related to your point. Your arguments have been discombobulated at best. First you said that bin Laden was not at Tora Bora during the invasion, and then you said he slipped out during a stand down. Your reality can’t see the conflict of the statements. You claim that Congress received the same “cooked” intelligence as former President Bush, supplied by the Office of Special Plans, but then you go on to blame the victims of the deceit, not the perpetrator. You say you’re a critic of the former President yet you go out of your way to defend and excuse him.

This behavior shows serious signs of psychosis. I think the stress is getting to you.

[Smarter Than You]

Oh, and now I've double posted. That means you get to ignore the facts and arguments presented and claim victory. . .not!

[Smarter Than You]

Nice, Bozo Man.

Sorry if in my hurry to fire off a quick missive on the way out the door I made a typo. To be fair, correcting my haste induced mistake is probably the closest thing to a salient point you've made.

Of course I COULD argue that on Afghanistan Obama, like Bin Laden, has disappeared. But I'll just stick to the facts as presented.

[Smarter Than You]

Nice, Bozo Man.

Sorry if in my hurry to fire off a quick missive on the way out the door I made a typo. To be fair, correcting my haste induced mistake is probably the closest thing to a salient point you've made.

Of course I COULD argue that on Afghanistan Obama, like Bin Laden, has disappeared. But I'll just stick to the facts as presented.

[Wild Man]

“And you still can't wrap your arms around the argument that Obama slipped out during the temporary stand-down (also in a previous post).” STY

What a revealing statement proving that you’re nothing more than a delusional neocon zealot. You truly view anyone that disagrees with your singular conservative orthodox philosophy on the same scale as a terrorist. And you view the President as the leader of a terrorist organization. Your pathetic schizophrenic hallucinations make it easier to understand why it so easy for you to distort and lie in order to make a point. You’re at a point where reality only exists in your own mind. I honestly feel sorry for you.

[chalveyob]

Wildman, you need to seriously quit while you are behind. Posting the same lies over and over does not make them correct.

[Smarter Than You]

You are partially right that the OSP did filter intelligence to the White House, but you have offered nothing that it precluded congressional members from getting information from other sources. Two years after, when your supposed manipulations came to full public view, our current Sec State STILL supported her vote to invade Iraq. That’s got to make you feel good about Obama’s decision making. Further, upon review of the OSP tactics, they were no doubt playing up the Iraq/al qaeda angle but not fabricating intelligence on WMD's. Another fact, previous administrations had also mistakenly thought Sadam had WMD's. At best, you can argue there may have been conflicting intelligence, but in the aftermath of two smoking craters in Manhattan, I don't think the President, Congress or the American public were in the mood to sit idly by and hope Sadam didn't have them.

You're arguing in circles on the second. Now you say Bin Laden was "in the region of Tora Bora." Uh, Beavis, that includes over the Pakistan border. See my previous missive so I don't have to re-post. And you still can't wrap your arms around the argument that Obama slipped out during the temporary stand-down (also in a previous post).

To Afghanistan today. First, your almost bi-polar arguments on the field commanders (these are your direct quotes):
“I never blamed the field commanders for anything”
“The problem is that he honored the requests of the field commanders when he took office”
So you never “blamed” them, but his honoring their request was the “problem.”

As for candidate Obama on Afghanistan, here are just a few hi-lights:

“SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), Presidential Candidate: I believe U.S. troop levels need to increase. And I, for at least a year now, have called for two additional brigades, perhaps three.”

“As a candidate, Barack Obama called Afghanistan "the war we must win.””

“In the summer of 2008, Afghanistan emerged as a prominent issue in connection with Sen. Barack Obama's (D-IL) first trip there as the presumptive Democratic nominee. During his July 2008 visit, Obama described Afghanistan as a central front in the battle against terrorism and called for the immediate redeployment of some U.S. combat forces from Iraq to Afghanistan.”

And just so you can put a Cowboy hat on Obama:

“"We will kill bin Laden. We will crush al Qaeda. That has to be our biggest national security priority," Senator Barack Obama pledged during the televised presidential debate of last October 7.”

That last one was very Bush-like. Again, I’m not absolving Bush of anything, but I’m not letting Obama have a free ride either.

Have a great weekend.

[Wild Man]

STY,

So I don’t offend GHman when I use some of your quotes when I’m talking to you.we’ll do it this way.

Your first point, you again creatively ignore the fact that Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Chenney, Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith created the Office of Special Plans that filtered all intelligence that the President and members of Congress had access to. In several recent posts you have not disputed these facts. It has been also documented, and you have not disputed, that intelligence was “cooked”. President Bush ahs admitted that some of the intelligence was incomplete and flawed already. I have said repeatedly that I did not believe that the President was responsible for the deception of Congress or the American people, but the people he appointed were. He acted, and Congress acted, based on intelligence that was purposefully inaccurate. When you look at all the facts it makes the intelligence thing a big starter.

On your second point, this is just another attempt to throw in another red herring. It is hard to tell if bin Laden was at Tora Bora at the time of the invasion. Intelligence reports that have been released however believe that he was injured there at the outset of the battle. There also were more recent intelligence gained from interrogation of his personal body guard that suggests how he slipped through the lines. That’s neither here nor there. We know for a fact that intelligence had him in the region around Tora Bora at the outset of the war. We also know that troop requests by military commanders to levels where they could secure the region were routinely denied by the Defense Department from the outset of planning all the way up to the invasion. There was no call for additional troops, what was allocated by Donald Rumsfeld was not enough to do the job.

Your third point is a bold faced lie. I never blamed the field commanders for anything. I mentioned that one of the Presidents first acts in office was to honor the requests of the field commanders that had been ignored for years. I then pointed out that additional requests were not made until late in the summer. I never heard the President say what you claim he said, (“Funny thing is they weren't the one's campaigning for a year prior and promising they had the answers and knew exactly what to do in Afghanistan.”) I never heard him say that he knew exactly what to do. If you have something to back that up please provide it or admit that you lied.
If you are suggesting that not sending more troops in to this point is not backing the troops, I don’t understand your point. You know what is available now. Please, don’t be cryptic, (do you like that word too) tell me what you would do in his place. Are you advocating cutting and running?

Did I satisfy your plagiarism issues bubba.

[jack]

Looks to me like Obama is in danger of failure while trying to build consensus. He appears so busy trying to get everyone to sing from the same sheet music that he is essentially paralized.

[Keith Williams3]

I'm staying out of this one.

Cant we all get along, WildMan, JazzMan, GHMan see we are all men here oh and you to STY :>) HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND!

[Smarter Than You]

Agreement that there is plenty of blame, Wild Man. But that doesn't absolve Obama of committing the very sins you've blamed Bush for.

The intelligence thing is a non-starter for you. For your scenario to be true you'd have to presuppose that members of the congressional intelligence committees, that were getting the same raw data the White House did, also were complacent in manipulating what was presented . Yet when you look at the votes of the members of the intelligence committee, it was gung ho on the invasion of Iraq. It was bi-partisan. If this was the Discovery Channel, I'd point out that your myth is busted. For a bonus point, I might add the previous administration also believed Saddam to be a threat, but I'm sure that was just Bubba manipulating the data.

Your argument on Tora Bora assumes that Bin Laden hadn't already retreated across the border before the call for additional troops and ignored the negotiated stand down that would not have been affected by having additional troops. Busted.

Then you want to lay the blame for Obama’s Afghanistan plan at the feet of the field commanders. Funny thing is they weren't the one's campaigning for a year prior and promising they had the answers and knew exactly what to do in Afghanistan. Under your scenario the commanders also must have hidden the troop numbers you've offered so many times from their Commander-in-Chief. Obama did what he promised he would/wanted to do without making sure he had the troops and firepower to pull it off. That, like Bush, is his sin. That the results of his actions are a massive increase in troop casualties is not in dispute. That, after promising military families to back the troops in harms way “to the hilt,” he’s put himself in a time-out on Afghanistan is not in dispute.

You get credit for some creative story telling, Wild Man, but the facts don't back your conclusion offered.

[Greghand]

Hey Wildman I forgot! Yesterday I asked you to give your opinion on how you would handle the Afghanistan soldier shortage situation. Better yet just give the site address so I know where you would have stole it and you can give that copy button a rest.

[Greghand]

GHman, your an idiot with no credibility. That is why your widely ignored.
Wildman
I can't be to ignored Wildman my letter was read by 70,000 readers in the Star today.
And if I had a choice between my unfettered posts being ignored or being the the unfettered idiot of the day! "Day after day!" I think I'll just have to take your insult as a compliment!

[Wild Man]

GHman, your an idiot with no credibility. That is why your widely ignored.

[Greghand]

I apologize Wildman! Both NOMO and STY have posted repeatedly what you constantly plagiarize! Did I leave out anyone?

[Greghand]

let me remind you that the Democratic congressional support for the invasion of Iraq was nearly unanimous. Or that even two years later Obama’s hand picked Secretary of State was defending her vote FOR the invasion of Iraq.” Wildman
You don't have to remind anyone! NOMO has written this to you repeatedly! And I repeat! Get your own ideas!!!

[Wild Man]

“The topic here is Afghanistan, but since you want to talk about Iraq, let me remind you that the Democratic congressional support for the invasion of Iraq was nearly unanimous. Or that even two years later Obama’s hand picked Secretary of State was defending her vote FOR the invasion of Iraq.”

The topic is Afghanistan, and why we are still in the country. Recently many posts have been provided documenting the fact that intelligence was “cooked” about Iraq, their WMD’s, their ties with al Qaeda, and there threat to American interests. I have said over and over again that I do not believe that the former president was responsible for the distortion of truth, but he was responsible for the presentation of intelligence that he admitted later was incomplete and unreliable. Your argument about Congressional Democrats is not valid. They’re actions were based off of the use of manipulated intelligence. If true facts were presented would they have taken the same action? I doubt it, and that is the reason why the intelligence was “cooked”. As for Sec. of State Clinton, at the time of the statements she was the Senator from the state at the heart of the attacks. Presented with false intelligence, she reacted the way any normal person would react. This argument is nothing more than a red herring to change the subject.

“You ignore the September 2001 battle of Tora Bora, and the negotiated local truce under the guise of surrender that allowed Bin Laden and his ilk to slip across the border to Pakistan.”

How convenient to manipulate the facts. It was well documented before and after the invasion that field commanders had requested troop allocations at a level that they felt was high enough to secure the area where al Qaeda leadership was located. The requests were denied by the Department of Defense which allowed a troop allocation at a fraction of what was requested. The leadership slipped away into Pakistan because we did not have a force level strong enough to secure the region. Poor planning and operational management by the Bush administration allowed al Qaeda to slip away.

“Your problem here is that Obama documented a year before he became President what he was going to do in Afghanistan. Then he did it, regardless of the military realities.”

The problem is that he honored the requests of the field commanders when he took office. The enemy is still in that theater. As you know, it wasn’t until the end of the summer that additional troops were requested. With realities of what he inherited he has to reevaluate what is possible. You know this.

You want to lay blame solely at the feet of the President when you know it is a lie. There is plenty of blame to go around for the mess we are in.

[Greghand]

Jazz we only funded the afghan resistance against the soviets. No boots on the ground unless you consider CIA and Congressman Charlie Wilson soldiers. Wilson received all funding until Russia retreated then asked for just a few million $'s to keep the Taliban from taking over the country and was denied. The rest is 9/11 history. If U.S. troops pull out before we give Afghanistan a chance to build a formitable military we may be repeating out mistakes. But the only only person on this thread that is qualified to answer any military strategy for the future of Afghanistan is Wildman.