Selfish freeloading

Isn’t it curious that the same people who bemoan “leaving this debt to our children and grandchildren” are the same folks who for the last 30 years said deficits don’t matter? They are the same folks who are willing to watch the economy collapse rather than raise taxes and pay this generation’s share.

It ain’t rocket science, because we need to raise taxes and cut spending

John Meyer
Blue Springs

Comments

[kem]

Well, well, Roger. First of all, as a sidelight, you do what so many on the left do. You try to put words in my mouth and thoughts in my mind. Take care of your own words and thoughts, I can take care of mine without your help. You see? I don't begrudge anyone a level of income that you have established as a decent living by being paid what you call a living wage. I don't begrudge anyone about that at all. Nothing I have said indicates that. However, your solution is for the government to mandate and employer to pay a worker more than the worker's productivity would earn. As I said before, that is the government forcing someone else to do the government's job. That is not right. One could get the idea that I am in favor of bringing back the slaves? The only "one" who might think that is someone who is really freaking stupid. I don't use that term very often, but it really fit in this case. Slavery? Geez, Roger. Now Roger, I weighed through your condescension that is so prevalent on the left. As you suggested, I even reread your paragraph again. And here, how about if I trump you. If businesses paying your living wage to people who do not produce it will lift the economy, then why don't we have businesses pay 1.2X your living wage. We would really get the economy going then, wouldn't we. Why stop there? Let's go to 2.0X of your living wage. Are we getting close to Nirvana yet? Your premise falls apart when you don't increase the payment to really get things cooking. And that, of course, is because you can't. Because it doesn't work that way. Otherwise, The Democrat controlled house and the Democrat controlled Senate, along with the Obama WH would have instituted that during the two years they held all the cards. Your solution is so simple. Why didn't they just do that?

And you address the stimulus in a very deceitful way. Let's keep the apples in the apple sack and the oranges in the orange sack, ok? You said the stimulus money went to the criminals who created the problem. Hmmm, I'm guessing you mean Wall Street. You know, that moneyed group who gave more money to Obama than to McCain. Yeah, them, right? Please list the stimulus money that went to Wall Street. It didn't You see, the apples of the stimulus waist largely went to the states and then on to the public employee unions. It was the oranges of the TARP funds that went to Wall Street. Two entirely different pieces of legislation. Two different stacks of borrowed money. One big difference, though. The bankers have paid nearly all the money back. The recipients of the stimulus funds simply blew the money. An example is Cleaver's green zone. With so much of the stimulus money going support wages of public employees, why didn't that act like your living wage and provide a robust economy? Hmmm? So, to sum this part up, why would you confuse the TARP moneys with the stimulus moneys?

Oh, and those trains again. Ok, I get it. We take money from the rich and build trains that go all over the country. Waldo, too? The wages, and taxes involved with paying for all that will surely propel us to Nirvana. Right? Oh, ok, it won't. But you want to get there, right. So, let's not only build trains for everyone, we can build a nicer house for everyone. And a nicer car. We will just get it started by taking more money from the greedy rich and get it going. You know, prime the pump. Once people get down to buying the fuzzy dice to put in their new cars, and the pink flamingos to go in their new front yard, then Nirvana will be just around the corner.

Roger, one last question. What planned economy has ever worked? Cuba? If you check history, I don't think anyone has ever died swimming TO that country. Or, do you have another example in mind? The ongoing, incomplete works in Venezuela? Nirvana will surely arrive in South American with Chavez at the helm. Other than in a liberal's notebook, where have you found a planned community that worked?

[Roger Campbell]

OK, Kem, why do you begrudge others of a decent living? Reading your response, one could get the idea you are for bringing back the slaves. Or at least slave wage serfs. Apparently you slept through economics 101. Simple question for you. What drives the economy? Money, correct?
Now if the workers have some extra money, they will spend it, correct?
Stay with me here if you can. How is the best way to have some discretionary money to spend? Wait for it...
Living Wage Jobs. With Living Wage Jobs people have a little extra money to buy things.
I haven lost you yet, have I?
Any way, if people buy things, business can sell things. Businesses employ people to make sure they have a product to sell. If they sell enough, the business can expand, hire more people, hopefully with Living Wage Jobs. Reread the last paragraph again.
I'll wait for you to process that.

OK, now, what happens to that same store when their customers do not have the extra money to buy their products because they have a cheap, greedy boss, such as yourself? That business can't sell their product because their customers can't afford it, because they are not making a Living Wage!
I know this is very a complicated concept for people to the right of center, but work on it. You may be able figure it out.

And as for the stimulus not working, It is for the same reason the Republican stimulus did not work. The money went to the criminals that caused the recession in the first place, instead of the victims. In other words, most of the stimulus money never circulated through the economy. It went to Wall Street and the Banksters to cover their gambling debts. The problem is, that was our money they were and still are using. Heads, they win, Tails we lose. The gampling is still going on.
I don't expect you to get this one.

I see the High Speed Rail concept went way over your head. I'm surprise you even noticed it.
The start up money will come from stopping Bush's wars, Tax increases on those most able to pay them. Building the system will employ hundreds of thousands of people. Businesses will have to expand to supply the needed steel, concrete, locomotives and cars, electronics and whatever else it takes. To say nothing about all the labor. And then all the spin off companies and jobs to support the ones doing the actual building It is a kick start to reviving our economy again.
All this money changing hands and all the Living Wage Jobs it will create, will generate taxes so our government can be functional again. Social Security will be solvent far into the future. The same for Medicare and Medicare. We can implement Single Payer, Universal Health care, such as the rest of the civilized world already has. We really do need to put the "Your Money or Your Life" health insurance companies out of business. They are killing too many people for their own profit.

[kem]

Roger...wow.

So you have established yourself where you want to be. Uber left wouldn't begin to describe you. First of all, people, beware of anyone who uses the term "living wage". What is meant by living wage is that it is the responsibility of the employer to provide sufficient wages to keep everyone up to a minimum standard set by Roger. Roger? It is not the business's responsibility. What you are saying is that the business should pay monies even though it exceeds the productivity of the worker. That is government outsourcing welfare expense to businesses. Paying out welfare is the government's job, not businesses.

Roger, do you know what taxes are paid by the multinational corporations you talk about? And who pays their income tax, anyway? It is built into their cost structure and it is paid by the consumer.

Obviously, you are the typical liberal. Your answer is to spend, spend spend and then spend more. If spending money is the answer, then why didn't the Democrats' stimulus money work? It didn't. All it did was but us more in the whole.

And just in case anyone might think either one of your oars has touched water recently, you call for high speed trains to criss cross the country. It is possible...possible.... that there are a few short routes on the upper eastern seaboard that might support a high speed train. Maybe. But high speed trains crisscrossing the country like the interstate highway system?

Come on people, speak up. Is building a high speed train system extensive enough to crisscross the country like the interstate highway system the think to do? And if you favor Roger's trains, please include you plan to pay for the startup costs and the ongoing operating and maintenance costs.

[Roger Campbell]

The selfish freeloaders are the big multinational corporations that do not pay any or very little taxes. The selfish freeloaders are those Well-To-Do that GW Bush gave the gift of the tax cuts that got us into this economic mess in the first place. Along with the unpaid for Bush wars of choice.

The only way we are recover from the Conservative Republican caused economic recession is to raise taxes on those most able to pay them - The big multinational corporations and the Well To Do.
Stop our wars of aggression.
Get our Living Wage Jobs back into this country.
The government need to spend money in THIS country. Money that will help those in need of help, the middle and lower class. Without money people cannot buy anything. If they cannot buy anything, businesses cannot sell anything. If they cannot sell anything, they lay off their workers, making the situation worse.
Cutting Social security, Medicare and Medicaid is counter productive, as that only makes matters worse because that removes even more money form circulation. The fix is to get more money into circulation. You do not do that by giving tax cuts to the Rich. They will not spend it. You do it by getting our Living Wage Jobs back into this country. You do it by COLA's for Social Security. You do it by Single Payer Universal Health Care. You do that by WPA style work programs, rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure. You do it by building high speed rail crisscrossing our once great county, as the Interstate highways were built.

Don't listen the the Republicans. Their way is what cause this recession in the first place and they are still working for the same old thing, saying what was done to break it is the way to fix it. No, it ain't. The fix is to do the opposite of what got us in this economic mess.
Raise taxes on the Well to Do.
Stop the wars.
Get our Living Wage Jobs back into this country.

[Jim50]

We need to raise taxes. Taxes on the bottom 51% who PAY NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX! They need to start paying their fair share. The free ride is OVER!

[Seth]

I find it curious that the same people who want everyone else to change their lifestyle now to leave the planet in good shape for our children and grandchildren don't seem very concerned about saddling our children and grandchildren with debt in order to not have to change their lifestyle now.

[kem]

John, Why do you say things that are not true? Nice sound bite from the left, though. Deficits don't matter? Do you even know who supposedly said that and when? Supposedly, Cheney said that in a private, one on one, meeting with a guy who became a disgruntled employee and wrote a book. That's all it was. But the press and the liberals keep repeating it like you just did. Also, thirty years? If it was said at all, it was said in the last administration, not thirty years ago? Did you know that? Are you just mindlessly repeating what you hear and then exaggerating from there? Please tell us.

[Mark Robertson]

There actually need to be tax cuts on the "wealthy." Every time taxes have been cut on the wealthy, the group, as a whole, paid much more in taxes because of the corresponding economic growth. Thank you.

Mark Robertson
Independence

[zeno]

MY favortie part of this discussion is raise taxes and cut spending. Meaning:::

Raise taxes now- start today collecting money

Cut spending- over a ten year period so the number sounds good. The problem of course is the spending never actuaaly gets cut. Just lots of gimmicks and accounting cuts. And by the second year congress just ignors the cuts part.

So I say let's do the reverse. Real cuts today and raise taxes Back ended of course over 10 years.

[John S]

Those people are, as pmcw pointed out, mostly Democrats, liberals, progressives and RINOs. Conservatives believe in smaller, more responsible government.

[pmcw]

John, You're mistaken - real fiscal conservative said cut spending 30 years ago and have clung to that belief since. There were some RINOs who joined with Democrats and supported deficit spending. Bush was clearly not a fiscal conservative.