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February 16, 2012

Useless voter ID laws

There is so much talk nowadays about elections and proof of citizenship. Having the ability to vote, they say, is a privilege.

If I remember history correctly, the ability to vote is our right granted by our Constitution. It’s a right for everyone and not just those with a piece of paper.

Requiring a person to have a piece of paper with their picture on it that states he or she is from such-and-such a state is like the Internal Revenue Service investigation with its numbers.

The only pieces of paper that most politicians want are green — and they have pictures of dead presidents on them.

William S. Pitchford
Kansas City



LL rottenacorn.com. AKA heritage foundation,well maybe not,but might as well be,maybe their related to the blaze

Wild Man

When you find something that shows that voter fraud has impeded the election process, please let me know. There is strong evedence that voter id laws will impede the election process if you are willing to critically read the whole story. LL, I don't often agree with you, but you have demonstrated that you are open minded.

Wild Man

PROVED registration fraud by ACORN…… more than 1.8 million deceased people are currently registered to vote… the study also found nearly 3 million voters were registered in multiple states – LL

I remember, Mickey Mouse tried to register in several states, but did Mickey actually vote?
Mickey Mouse tried to register to vote in Florida this summer. Orange County elections officials rejected his application, which was stamped with the logo of the nonprofit group ACORN. – Tampa Bay Times

It appears not. In fact I found no reference of Mickey voting in the last election. It seems the current system is working just fine. How many of the dead people voted? How many of the people that were registered in several states voted more than once? According to the documentation very few if any.
Our good friend STY has already documented that over the last ten years the Department of Justice has secured about 100 convictions of voter fraud in this country. I asked him, and I will ask you, what percentage of the votes counted did those 100 votes represent? I’m not sure that fractions of numbers go that low.

Disenfranchisement is reprehensible. The manufacturing of cause is abhorible. And those that take propaganda at face value… I’ll let you decide what they are.

Wild Man

Wildman...I am referring to your constant mention of no voter fraud proof – LL

You mean like;

Let's look at the facts. The Justice Department under George W. Bush launched a massive, five-year investigation into voter fraud that resulted in a paltry 86 convictions across the entire country. Similarly, a three-year study conducted by Professor Lori Minnite of Barnard College showed that not only is voter fraud a very rare phenomenon, but the vast majority of cases involved people who were either ineligible to vote at all or had voted more than once in an election. Voter ID laws, which only target voter impersonation, would not have done anything to prevent these instances of fraud. – Baltimore Sun


The rationale for state photo ID laws is to prevent voter fraud. Yet there are no documented instances of fraud that these laws would prevent. An extensive analysis of data from all 50 states by the U.S. Justice Department found that incidents of voter fraud are exceedingly rare and were, in all cases, instances of improper voting involve registration and eligibility issues that would not be solved by voter ID laws. – Republican-led Voter Restrictions Are Rigging Democracy – Us News


Wildman...I am referring to your constant mention of no voter fraud proof (not just you but by so many of your democratic friends)...When I google information I can see many instances of double voting which would also be helped by good photo ID...and proving residence...

When there is PROVED registration fraud by ACORN...I feel that there is reason to suspect fraud in others areas.


Why can't we clean up our voting system here in the USA? A report issued recently by the Pew Center on the States finds that nationwide, more than 1.8 million deceased people are currently registered to vote. The study also found nearly 3 million voters were registered in multiple states.

In the coming years - with Obama's health care...photo ID's will become common for everyone - as you will not receive hospital or medical care without it...Why not show photo ID to vote - or do you all just feel it's not important enough?....

Wild Man

I would love for my good friend LL to give me a detailed account of the misinformation that I or KC Ed have spread. It’s one thing to throw out unfounded accusations. It’s another to actually have proof to back the accusation.


I admit - when stating KC Educator's posting name....I unfairly mentioned the failing school system in KC. ...but, that really wan't fair - I'll admit....Sorry KC, I was off topic and that about the schools was JMO.....

Back to the voter's ID question - I have pulled up sites showing voter fraud...but it's never been enough for you & LIT....Personally, I think any chance of voter's fraud is wrong...and it's easy enough to remedy....A few weeks ago - Sol pulls up one Republican politician - who committed voter fraud - due to living in a resident other than one he's listed as his residence...and you all "eat it up"...a big joke according to Sol.....When several people wrote about a judge in KC whose residency was questioned - not a one of you voiced any concern....

I still say - Once in too much!!

What I do not understand Uncommon is the steadfast stubbornness of the Democratic Party for something so important to the survival of the American democratic process...and your party fighting AGAINST needing photo ID....

If you need it for healthcare (because of insurance & medicare fraud) how you can all say that fraud doesn't exist within our voting process? Fraud exists everywhere today wherever there's a buck to be made...which includes getting certain candidates elected into office....

Still don't see what you're all afraid of....

Uncommon sense

And again with the whole inane argument about how we have to show ID for everything else. The voting registration process is where ID I'd shown. The records are then cross-referenced with county records. When there is a problem, the name is removed. There have been instances where people who didn't exist tried to register. They have generally always been caught. They have not actually voted, of course.

Then there are records where dead people are still registered. Again, they didn't vote. This is an issue of record keeping and timely expunging individuals from the voter registrations.

Back to the ID for everything else issue...let me ask you a question. Of all the things you listed, can you tell me one of them that is necessary for the survival of the American domocratic process?

Uncommon sense

LL, did you even look at Jim's links? The first deals with robicalls that gave misinformation. I recently saw a pact campaign add that stated that "Obamacare is government-ran healthcare". This has been proven false and misinformation.

The second link talks about how "ineligible" voters (ex-felons) voted. It doesn't talk about any type of voter fraud that an ID would prevent. It really addresses how MN needs to step up record keeping.

So, why do you think KC Ed and WM are spreading misinformation and lead in with your attack about KC schools? To me, that's pretty offensive given that you probably didnt even look at the links, or if you did, didn't read the links with any sense of critical thinking to see they show nothing that addresses the issue of this thread.


Wildman & KC Educator (no wonder our KC schools stink)....You both continue your crusade to negate problems with voter fraud, and to give us a lot of misinformation...

...Whenever proof is given, as Jim50 provides - it is never enough for this ridiculous stance on voter ID to continue....When others point out that photo ID will be available free of cost...still not enough!!

You show your ID for everything else, from Healthcare, drivers licenses, and liquor purchases...to getting a library card or renting a video. Don't you agree that voting is important and that good procedures should be in place with millions of illegals in our country and "dead people" still on voter's registration lists?...

...Exactly what are you both afraid of?!!!

Wild Man

The rationale for state photo ID laws is to prevent voter fraud. Yet there are no documented instances of fraud that these laws would prevent. An extensive analysis of data from all 50 states by the U.S. Justice Department found that incidents of voter fraud are exceedingly rare and were, in all cases, instances of improper voting involve registration and eligibility issues that would not be solved by voter ID laws. – Republican-led Voter Restrictions Are Rigging Democracy – Us News

Voter id laws are just the tip of the iceberg of the republican strategy to impose their will on the American electorate. Led by the American Legislative Exchange Council, a conservative advocacy group that receives funding from the billionaire Koch brothers, crafted and distributed model legislation restricting voting for lawmakers to introduce in 34 states. (US News) The purpose of the legislation is to suppress votes by groups that tend to vote for Democratic candidates, and to change the process of how the Electoral College is chosen in order to be more favorable to republican candidates. The systematic attack used by the republicans is unprecedented in modern US history.

Voter id laws will inordinately impact certain groups, that tend to favor democratic candidates, stronger than other groups. 10% of all voters lack the necessary documentation to be eligible to vote under this legislation, but young people (18%) and African Americans (25%) are disproportionally impacted.

Other legislation that will impact elections that is being pushed by republicans include restricting voter registration policy making it impossible for groups like the League of Women Voters to register voters, changing established law making it illegal for convicted felons to vote even after fully serving their time for the crime that they were convicted of, narrowing the early voting period of an election and ending the practice of election day voter registration.

The most hideous of the strategies is legislation that has been introduced by republican law makers that would change the way the Electoral College is chosen. Under the Constitution how Electors are chosen is left up to the individual states. Traditionally, Electors have been distributed on a winner take all basis. New legislation would distribute the Electors based on election results in each Congressional District of the state. In these states, through the gerrymandering process, republicans are trying to carve out a proportionally larger number of “safe” districts where the voters tend to vote for republican candidates. Under the proposed legislation, larger more urban areas (which tend to vote for Democrats) would be represented by fewer Congressional districts. The legislation would make it easy for a republican presidential candidate to lose the popular vote of a state yet win the majority of the Electoral vote for the state. The gerrymandering process being used by political parties to control Congress is nothing new. The new republican strategy is an obvious attempt to manipulate presidential elections in their favor.

KC Educator

I’m not really sure what Jim50’s point was. If he is trying to support voter id legislation the articles he picked were strange. The first article from US News talks about a republican operative that was convicted of voter fraud in Maryland for illegally trying to suppress minority votes, who normally vote for Democrats. The second article from (and tell me that this isn’t a propaganda rag) the “Election Law Center – more red than the ivory tower” talks about people that voted illegally in Minnesota due to a recent change in election laws. The law made it illegal for convicted felons who had fully served their sentence (who previously been allowed to vote) the right to vote. The problem was that most of the people that voted illegally didn’t know that the law had changed. The article goes on to say that most of the people who were charged “simply pled ignorance” of the law and were not convicted of any crime. The number of people identified as voting illegally under this new law represents a fration of the total electorate and had no effect on the election, and voter id legislation would have done nothing to stop this problem.

Let’s be honest. Voter id laws will not stop voter fraud. How many people believe that it is impossible to get a fake id? Just like under aged drinkers, if they have the will, can obtain the proper documentation to buy alcohol, people who want to vote illegally will be able to do the same thing. Voter ids will not prevent voter fraud, all it will do suppress voters rights


Maryland Voter Fraud Conviction Is an Important Warning

113 convictions represent small fraction of total unlawful votes

We need voter fraud laws! Anyone convicted of intentional voter fraud needs to get life in prison without parole!



I get the "opportunity" to listen to the local "FOX" guy in Des Moines every morning. He had someone on recently who was described as a "conservative operative" (I try not to listen very hard or I'd have more information). He and the host were giggling about how Republican control of most legislatures lead to eliminating congressional seats held by Democrats. THey also discussed how the non-partisan method of redistricting in Iowa harms their chances to "get rid of Democrats". (Oh, DARN, the evils of an honestly bipartisan system!) Their stated hope was the installation of a "permanent Republican majority".

Apparently, at least these two guys believe the power of the "conservative cause" is in gerrymandered districts, voter suppression and all the other means that single party systems use to perpetuate themselves.


Uncommon sense

BV, please show some evidence that a dead individual "cast a vote" in any modern election. I have known of deceased individuals still showing as registered to vote, but not actually casting a vote. There is a huge difference. I am liberal, though not necessarily a Democrat. I see this issue as nothing more than a subtle attempt to further some conservative agendas, in regard to voting, that we have been fighting for hundreds of years. To me, it's coupled with the redistributing battles that many states, that are general conservative strongholds, now are fighting in the courts.

States like Texas are trying to redraw district maps to limit liberal voting. The courts have intervened. This all is nothing new.

Wild Man

I love my good friend. Even when he is shown to be miserably inept he claims victory and then scurries away.


He tries to avoid the fact that there has never been a shred of real evidence that proves that voter fraud is a severe enough problem which needs to be fixed by legislation that denies voting rights to citizens. He acknowledges the fact that voter id legislation makes it more difficult for individuals within certain subgroups to exercise their right to vote, and in some cases disenfranchises them. Yet he justifies this fact with the argument that there is no evidence that voter turnout has been suppressed, and he believes that no one will be smart enough to see how illogical his arguments really are (I guess that’s why he claims to be smarter than you). Our system of government was specifically established to respect individual rights of the citizens. Robert Kennedy stated, during a different time in which the nation was fighting attempts by conservatives to limit voter rights, “we know that if one man's rights are denied, the rights of all others are endangered" If one person can be legally denied the right to vote, no one’s right to vote is protected.


So, let me get this straight, the "proof" that some large number of people are committing voter fraud is that virtually no one is being caught committing voter fraud. Wow! What an argument.

Those most likely to be excluded from voting due to lack of ID are the elderly, poor and college students. All three groups vote heavily Democratic. The Dems want them in and the Reps want them out. What a surprise.


I cannot understand why the people who are complaining are always Democrats. The Democrats all over the country are complaining. If they aren't stuffing the ballot boxes why complain? People who are dead vote every year. This is a fact. How can you prove it? It is simple, you need to have the voter registration compared to the bureau of vital statisics. If the people on the voter registration are dead then delete them. This would eliminate part of the problem. I am sure that the people who are illegals or out of state voters are going to admit they are paid to vote. This is another Democratic ploy. They know they won't come forward. You all have to have a photo id to sign up for social security, to go to a doctor, or hospital. Why the fuss?

Smarter Than You

Poor Wild; he must have a reading deficiency that prevents him from processing that the examples of voter fraud were despite what the court recognizes as a system, supported by Wild, that makes any prosecution exceedingly difficult. Either that or he just ignores it because it runs counter to his thesis.

Voter suppression? Nothing wide spread offered from Wild and his examples were dealt with. Increased voter participation, not decreased, was documented.

Poor Wild is so desperate at this point that he credits me with the results of a study from the University of Missouri. The cite was even provided. Just more of the reading deficiency previously noted.


As usual in these circumstances, Wild has failed miserably to support his thesis or to deny the preponderance of data offered. In the interest of a happier, friendlier Unfettered I'll leave the last words on this topic to Wild so he can once again attempt to delude himself that he's actually made a point.

Everyone else may be too smart to fall for it, but it makes him feel better.

All you, buddy! Have a great weekend.

Wild Man

Then my friend tried to minimize instances of voter disenfranchisement, (By the way zeno and JDog, STY confirm several of the examples that I gave you).

The nuns were aware of the id requirement before they decided to show up anyway. – My sad friend

They were legal residents of the state that met the age requirements who were not allowed to vote. It does not matter whether or not they were aware of the requirement, they were denied the right to vote.

The January voter was allowed to vote on a provisional ballot. – Again my sad friend
Does my good friend have proof that his vote was counted? If it was not, he was still disenfranchised. It is common practice for election officials to get rid of voter “problems” by giving those voters provisional ballots. In the 2004 federal election over 35% of provisional ballots were rejected for reasons that were easily correctable according to the Department of Justice. The odds of provisional ballot rejection are much higher than with a regular ballot. We know with certainty that he was not given a regular ballot even though he he met all requirements other than the voter id requirement, and because of that he had a 1 in 3 chance that his vote was not counted.

And my personal favorite.
The Indiana League of Women Voters trumpeted the example of Cindy Bevington, until they realized she tried to vote in Indiana with her Florida ID (where she was registered to vote).

This was not even an example that I gave so I’m confused on why it was added. But I’m not the only one confused. Cindy Bevington was not the individual registered in Florida and Indiana, she was a reporter for the Fort Wayne news paper who wrote the story about the woman. It’s ok, my good friend often gets confused. One time he posted on this board that Obama was hiding in the caves of Tora Bora during the Afghan invasion.


My good friend went on to say that there is, “no consistent or statistically significant evidence that the photo ID law depressed turnout .” Saying that there is no significant evidence is an admission that voters are losing franchise in this country, and that is a dangerous road to travel especially when there is no statistically significant evidence that it is needed.

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